Throwing Money Away 6 6

[Humpty-Dumpty]

On 7/6/2022 at 4:28 PM, Iceman399 said:

Based on the notes he should cpr it 😂🤣😂

If you like graded comics, then a good pick up. The grading fee alone was, what? Around $15? (I don't know, just guessing.)

[lou_fine]

On 7/9/2022 at 2:27 PM, darkstar said:

I'm betting the 3.0 Transformers 1 was purchased by a Transformers toy collector that simply wanted a slabbed copy to serve as a backdrop for his display shelf/cabinet. The grade is largely irrelevant, the price paid for the slabbed copy is close to what the floor is for raw copies on eBay.  

Although I personally wouldn't go for either copy, there clearly is less risk and a much much smaller chance of a making a purchasing error for a CGC 3.0 graded copy of Transformers 1 at $18, as opposed to paying $44K for a CGC 9.9 gradd copy of Transformers 1.  

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 7/7/2022 at 1:32 PM, Motor City Rob said:

Anyway, for someone to own a Transformers #1 in a 9.9 is a great accomplishment, IMO. 

To preserve the copy you bought off the stands well enough to get a 9.9 is a great accomplishment.   Dropping 45k on a pre-existing copy isn’t an accomplishment at all.   I suppose having the extra 45k to drop on a 9.9 copy could be considered an accomplishment though....

[Motor City Rob]

On 7/9/2022 at 6:35 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

To preserve the copy you bought off the stands well enough to get a 9.9 is a great accomplishment.   Dropping 45k on a pre-existing copy isn’t an accomplishment at all.   I suppose having the extra 45k to drop on a 9.9 copy could be considered an accomplishment though....

Definitely an accomplishment IMO. The same as someone dropping 45K to get an AF15 2.5. Just because someone likes a TF1 9.9 more than AF15 2.5 doesn't mean they are wrong.

[lou_fine]

On 7/9/2022 at 3:35 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

On 7/7/2022 at 10:32 AM, Motor City Rob said:

Anyway, for someone to own a Transformers #1 in a 9.9 is a great accomplishment, IMO. 

To preserve the copy you bought off the stands well enough to get a 9.9 is a great accomplishment.   Dropping 45k on a pre-existing copy isn’t an accomplishment at all.   I suppose having the extra 45k to drop on a 9.9 copy could be considered an accomplishment though....

Unless it was something like a 9.6 copy at the start that got steamrollered into a CGC 9.9 graded copy.  

[lou_fine]

On 7/9/2022 at 3:41 PM, Motor City Rob said:

Definitely an accomplishment IMO. The same as someone dropping 45K to get an AF15 2.5. Just because someone likes a TF1 9.9 more than AF15 2.5 doesn't mean they are wrong.

Yes, like I said, most definitely a case of to each their own.  

As long as both sides are aware of the rules and how the game is played, it's all good if the seller is happy with their sale and the buyer is happy with their purchase.  

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 7/9/2022 at 6:41 PM, Motor City Rob said:

Definitely an accomplishment IMO. The same as someone dropping 45K to get an AF15 2.5. Just because someone likes a TF1 9.9 more than AF15 2.5 doesn't mean they are wrong.

Maybe we have different definitions of an ‘accomplishment’.

[lou_fine]

On 7/9/2022 at 4:22 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

On 7/9/2022 at 3:41 PM, Motor City Rob said:

Definitely an accomplishment IMO. The same as someone dropping 45K to get an AF15 2.5. Just because someone likes a TF1 9.9 more than AF15 2.5 doesn't mean they are wrong.

Maybe we have different definitions of an ‘accomplishment’.

Clearly the case here as it's pretty easy to see the difference in the definition here, depending upon what viewpoint you are approaching the two books from.  

If you are approaching it from a relative grading scarcity POV, then the 9.9 Transformers 1 even with almost 4,000 total copies graded to date and counting because it can be seen as an "accomplishment" with only 4 copies currently graded at this highest CGC 9.9 graded condition level.  Especially when the supply side of the equation comes into play here as a copy in this nosebleed condition very seldom ever comes to market and can indeed be seen as a virtual "unicorn" in that sense.    

Then again, if you are approaching it from a historical comic book POV, acquiring what is considered to be the key SA comic book out there and one of the Top 3 comic books of all time in CGC 2.5 condition can also be seen as an true "accomplishment", even though there are well over another 2,000 copies of this same book in either equivalent or higher graded condition.  Especially when the demand side of the equation comes into play here and buyers are still willing to bid these astronomical prices for this book even though it shows up with usually multiple copies in this condition grade or higher in every single auction.    

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 7/9/2022 at 11:10 PM, lou_fine said:

Clearly the case here as it's pretty easy to see the difference in the definition here, depending upon what viewpoint you are approaching the two books from.  

If you are approaching it from a relative grading scarcity POV, then the 9.9 Transformers 1 even with almost 4,000 total copies graded to date and counting because it can be seen as an "accomplishment" with only 4 copies currently graded at this highest CGC 9.9 graded condition level.  Especially when the supply side of the equation comes into play here as a copy in this nosebleed condition very seldom ever comes to market and can indeed be seen as a virtual "unicorn" in that sense.    

Then again, if you are approaching it from a historical comic book POV, acquiring what is considered to be the key SA comic book out there and one of the Top 3 comic books of all time in CGC 2.5 condition can also be seen as an true "accomplishment", even though there are well over another 2,000 copies of this same book in either equivalent or higher graded condition.  Especially when the demand side of the equation comes into play here and buyers are still willing to bid these astronomical prices for this book even though it shows up with usually multiple copies in this condition grade or higher in every single auction.    

I’m not sure how I’ve become involved in your copper vs. silver tirade.   I don’t think Transformers 1 is a “nothing book” at all, and consider it a significant copper age key.  
 

I never collected Transformer comics or toys, but I loved the cartoon. I’m a fan.

I simply thought calling the purchase of that 9.9 a “great accomplishment” seemed odd.

[Lightning55]

On 7/7/2022 at 1:32 PM, Motor City Rob said:

I wouldn't go that far. Transformers #1 is a solid key. To say it's essentially worthless in most grades is really not doing the book justice.   Also, I have never really understood the comment about "buying a grade/label instead of buying the book". Anyone that buys a slab is chasing a book in a grade they want (or can afford). Does "buying the book" mean people should just buy raws? Never understood that whole discussion. Anyway, for someone to own a Transformers #1 in a 9.9 is a great accomplishment, IMO. 

"Buy the book, not the label" means that you shouldn't go exclusively by the grade on the slab.  If it is a 9.8 with some very visible defects, which are out there in numbers, you might pass on it until you find a 9.8 that looks like a 9.8 to you. 

Or one that a consensus of people would agree is a 9.8.  Not one that, through divine intervention, accidentally became a 9.8 on a certain magical day.  Check out the actual book in the slab very carefully, as best as you are able.

Many times there are 9.8's held up to example, experienced people giving their opinion, the majority overwhelmingly saying NOT a 9.8.  Don't buy that book.  Same for any grade, not just the top grades.

Some people make the mistake of relying too heavily on the label, and now own a 9.8 that is hard to sell because no one is convinced that it is a 9.8. 

And a 9.9?  Odds are 999 out of 1000 that if you cracked that and resubmitted it in the very same condition, it comes back a 9.8.  Or worse.  Just depends on the grader, the day of the week, the atmospheric pressure, the roll of the dice.

Edited July 10, 2022 by Lightning55

[lou_fine]

On 7/9/2022 at 8:59 PM, Lightning55 said:

"Buy the book, not the label" means that you shouldn't go exclusively by the grade on the slab. 

Some people make the mistake of relying too heavily on the label, 

And a 9.9?  Odds are 999 out of 1000 that if you cracked that and resubmitted it in the very same condition, it comes back a 9.8.  Or worse.  Just depends on the grader, the day of the week, the atmospheric pressure, the roll of the dice.

EXACTLY, and this even applies for grades below CGC 9.8 and CGC 9.9, as can be seen from this example here:  

An absolutely beautiful looking CGC 9.0 graded File Copy of Crackajack Funnies 9 from all the way back in 1939.  

Then again:  

Is it really worth THAT much more now that it is residing in a CGC 9.6 slab, even though it still exhibits the same 2 defects that was delineated in the Grader Notes (i.e. Front Cover Writing & Top Back Cover Lite Shadow) when it was graded as a CGC 9.0 copy?  

Or should we really be bidding much higher based upon the fact that it is now encased in a CGC 9.8 holder since the serial number for the 9.6 graded copy had been removed from the census right when the CGC 9.8 copy was added into the census population report?    

 

[Motor City Rob]

On 7/9/2022 at 11:59 PM, Lightning55 said:

"Buy the book, not the label" means that you shouldn't go exclusively by the grade on the slab.  If it is a 9.8 with some very visible defects, which are out there in numbers, you might pass on it until you find a 9.8 that looks like a 9.8 to you. 

Or one that a consensus of people would agree is a 9.8.  Not one that, through divine intervention, accidentally became a 9.8 on a certain magical day.  Check out the actual book in the slab very carefully, as best as you are able.

Many times there are 9.8's held up to example, experienced people giving their opinion, the majority overwhelmingly saying NOT a 9.8.  Don't buy that book.  Same for any grade, not just the top grades.

Some people make the mistake of relying too heavily on the label, and now own a 9.8 that is hard to sell because no one is convinced that it is a 9.8. 

And a 9.9?  Odds are 999 out of 1000 that if you cracked that and resubmitted it in the very same condition, it comes back a 9.8.  Or worse.  Just depends on the grader, the day of the week, the atmospheric pressure, the roll of the dice.

Appreciate all the detail, and no offense, but everything you just said isn't applicable at all to the original comment about the buyer of the 9.9 TF1. Are you saying that buyer was just "buying the grade and not the book"? Is your conclusion that anyone who bids on a book that they can't physically hold and inspect for themselves to guarantee it's the grade stated on the label...is just buying the grade? I'm sorry but that's utterly ridiculous. 

Edited July 12, 2022 by Motor City Rob

[Lightning55]

On 7/11/2022 at 11:39 PM, Motor City Rob said:

 Is your conclusion that anyone who bids on a book that they can't physically hold and inspect for themselves to guarantee it's the grade stated on the label...is just buying the grade? I'm sorry but that's utterly ridiculous. 

No more ridiculous than concluding that anyone buying ANY graded book in ANY particular grade is 100% getting an accurately graded book.  There are discrepancies throughout the world of graded books, sometimes large discrepancies.  You have to be diligent.

==============================

My comment was mostly about your interpretation of the "Buying the book" mantra.  It has nothing to do with raws.

On 7/7/2022 at 1:32 PM, Motor City Rob said:

I have never really understood the comment about "buying a grade/label instead of buying the book". Anyone that buys a slab is chasing a book in a grade they want (or can afford). Does "buying the book" mean people should just buy raws? Never understood that whole discussion. Does "buying the book" mean people should just buy raws? Never understood that whole discussion.

My first line in that response is "Buy the book, not the label" means that you shouldn't go exclusively by the grade on the slab.  It means that you shouldn't blindly accept the grade on the book, especially since you are the one who may be forking over big money to buy it. 

Maybe the comic isn't even in the same post-grading condition for a variety of factors - shaken comic syndrome, physical damage (dropped), not properly stored (humidity affecting it).  You would want to be comfortable with the grade assessment, in agreement.  And that becomes more important as the price point increases.

Which led to: "Some people make the mistake of relying too heavily on the label, and now own a 9.8 that is hard to sell because no one is convinced that it is a 9.8."

=============================

As for the Transformers 1 at 9.9, I have no particular opinion on that specific purchase.  If the buyer is happy, and the seller is happy, what more could you ask for?

I am saying that there are 9.9's out there that should/could be 9.8's.  And maybe some 9.8's that should/could be 9.9's.  The difference is so fine, almost impossible to quantify.  And yet the prices are exponentially different.  Buyer Beware.

 

 

 

 

[Motor City Rob]

On 7/12/2022 at 2:10 AM, Lightning55 said:

No more ridiculous than concluding that anyone buying ANY graded book in ANY particular grade is 100% getting an accurately graded book.  There are discrepancies throughout the world of graded books, sometimes large discrepancies.  You have to be diligent.

==============================

My comment was mostly about your interpretation of the "Buying the book" mantra.  It has nothing to do with raws.

My first line in that response is "Buy the book, not the label" means that you shouldn't go exclusively by the grade on the slab.  It means that you shouldn't blindly accept the grade on the book, especially since you are the one who may be forking over big money to buy it. 

Maybe the comic isn't even in the same post-grading condition for a variety of factors - shaken comic syndrome, physical damage (dropped), not properly stored (humidity affecting it).  You would want to be comfortable with the grade assessment, in agreement.  And that becomes more important as the price point increases.

Which led to: "Some people make the mistake of relying too heavily on the label, and now own a 9.8 that is hard to sell because no one is convinced that it is a 9.8."

=============================

As for the Transformers 1 at 9.9, I have no particular opinion on that specific purchase.  If the buyer is happy, and the seller is happy, what more could you ask for?

I am saying that there are 9.9's out there that should/could be 9.8's.  And maybe some 9.8's that should/could be 9.9's.  The difference is so fine, almost impossible to quantify.  And yet the prices are exponentially different.  Buyer Beware.

 

 

 

 

Agree with inspecting books before you buy them. But for the millions of auctions that happen each year, there is no way to know for sure if the book is properly graded since you don't have it in hand. So how can anyone put that label on a buyer? Remember, this all started with someone saying the TF1 9.9 buyer was "buying the grade and not the book". Using that logic, then you might as well put the same label on the millions of CGC auction winners each year. Makes no sense. Just comes across as sour grapes from grumpy (or jealous) boardies. 

[F For Fake]

On 7/12/2022 at 7:44 AM, Motor City Rob said:

Agree with inspecting books before you buy them. But for the millions of auctions that happen each year, there is no way to know for sure if the book is properly graded since you don't have it in hand. So how can anyone put that label on a buyer? Remember, this all started with someone saying the TF1 9.9 buyer was "buying the grade and not the book". Using that logic, then you might as well put the same label on the millions of CGC auction winners each year. Makes no sense. Just comes across as sour grapes from grumpy (or jealous) boardies. 

I think the disagreement here is due to differing interpretations of the original intent of the phrase "buy the book, not the label" as it has been used on these boards as long as I've been here, and no doubt much longer. It's a general statement meaning that not all books in a single grade are created equally, so look at the book in question. There are 9.8's sitting in 9.6 slabs, and vice versa. And even buying online, you should be able to get some idea via scans and pics. For instance, eBay, or CLink, or whoever, may have a dozen copies of Spawn #1 9.8 at any given time. But these copies aren't identical, and if you look at the scans, you can get an idea of which 9.8 is the best. Some books present better than others, even in the same grade. You can find some really beautiful 9.6's, hell, even 9'4s, that look as good as the same book in a 9.8 slab.

So, it's not sour grapes or jealousy, it's just good advice, generally speaking.

Now, if someone wants to apply that philosophy to ultra highgrade books like 9.9's and 10's, the phrase would have a different connotation, I'd agree. In those instances, sure, it seems like a buyer may be chasing a label rather than the book because frankly, for a long time, the difference in a 9.8 and a 9.9 could be practically invisible, and seemed somewhat arbitrary. So, the logic of "overpaying" for a 9.9 or 10 when they are oftentimes virtually indistinguishable from 9.8's could be called into question, especially when we're talking about thousands upon thousands of dollars in difference of cost. In those instances, I'd say it's less a matter of "buy the book not the label", and more "caveat emptor". With shipping, mishandling, SCS, etc, I wonder how many 9.9's and 10's that were slabbed years ago would still qualify for those grades? To me, it would be too risky to pay a premium for those grades. If I hit the lottery upon submission, better believe I'd be selling the book ASAP, picking up a 9.8, and pocketing the difference. But in 20 years or so of subbing, I've only hit a 9.9 once.

At the end of the day, everyone should collect how and what they want, but I do think that the "buy the book" philosophy, as originally intended, is a good one.

[Motor City Rob]

On 7/12/2022 at 11:02 AM, F For Fake said:

I think the disagreement here is due to differing interpretations of the original intent of the phrase "buy the book, not the label" as it has been used on these boards as long as I've been here, and no doubt much longer. It's a general statement meaning that not all books in a single grade are created equally, so look at the book in question. There are 9.8's sitting in 9.6 slabs, and vice versa. And even buying online, you should be able to get some idea via scans and pics. For instance, eBay, or CLink, or whoever, may have a dozen copies of Spawn #1 9.8 at any given time. But these copies aren't identical, and if you look at the scans, you can get an idea of which 9.8 is the best. Some books present better than others, even in the same grade. You can find some really beautiful 9.6's, hell, even 9'4s, that look as good as the same book in a 9.8 slab.

So, it's not sour grapes or jealousy, it's just good advice, generally speaking.

Now, if someone wants to apply that philosophy to ultra highgrade books like 9.9's and 10's, the phrase would have a different connotation, I'd agree. In those instances, sure, it seems like a buyer may be chasing a label rather than the book because frankly, for a long time, the difference in a 9.8 and a 9.9 could be practically invisible, and seemed somewhat arbitrary. So, the logic of "overpaying" for a 9.9 or 10 when they are oftentimes virtually indistinguishable from 9.8's could be called into question, especially when we're talking about thousands upon thousands of dollars in difference of cost. In those instances, I'd say it's less a matter of "buy the book not the label", and more "caveat emptor". With shipping, mishandling, SCS, etc, I wonder how many 9.9's and 10's that were slabbed years ago would still qualify for those grades? To me, it would be too risky to pay a premium for those grades. If I hit the lottery upon submission, better believe I'd be selling the book ASAP, picking up a 9.8, and pocketing the difference. But in 20 years or so of subbing, I've only hit a 9.9 once.

At the end of the day, everyone should collect how and what they want, but I do think that the "buy the book" philosophy, as originally intended, is a good one.

The original statement was that the TF1 9.9 buyer was "the poster child for the classic example of a CGC label chaser buying the label, as oposed to buying the book."  How can anyone make that assumption? When that statement is made, so definitively, with zero information on the book, the buyer, the circumstances, etc...it sounds completely misplaced, among other things. 

[Lightning55]

On 7/12/2022 at 6:42 PM, Motor City Rob said:

The original statement was that the TF1 9.9 buyer was "the poster child for the classic example of a CGC label chaser buying the label, as oposed to buying the book."  How can anyone make that assumption? When that statement is made, so definitively, with zero information on the book, the buyer, the circumstances, etc...it sounds completely misplaced, among other things. 

That was one person's opinion, which they are entitled to.  Some may agree, some may disagree, whatever.

Some people chase high grade books.  That's ok.  Other people may think they are crazy.  That's ok.  I bet some who chased the high grade books made out well financially over the years, some maybe not so much.  People are free to make their own choices.

[Motor City Rob]

On 7/12/2022 at 7:17 PM, Lightning55 said:

That was one person's opinion, which they are entitled to.  Some may agree, some may disagree, whatever.

Some people chase high grade books.  That's ok.  Other people may think they are crazy.  That's ok.  I bet some who chased the high grade books made out well financially over the years, some maybe not so much.  People are free to make their own choices.

Completely agree that everyone should be able to collect how they want. Also, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But part of the fun of the boards is diving into opinions and having entertaining discussions. Unfortunately, sometimes those opinions are more based on emotion than based on facts, and we really don't get anywhere. Oh well. 

[nines]

On 6/27/2022 at 4:57 PM, The Meta said:

Will you guys be quiet?

I might actually win some books this MCS auction

I was happy to win this one for the price of a good sandwich. 

 

Edited July 13, 2022 by nines

[Namtak]

On 7/13/2022 at 1:15 PM, nines said:

I was happy to win this one for the price of a good sandwich. 

 

Just dont eat it!