C2E2 Variant Drama 24 24

[Skwerl]

On 8/11/2022 at 3:16 AM, MGH said:

He probably needs to check where getting his legal advice from. 

Watching that video  made it looked more like he was making assumption he was in the clear  because he didn't use copyrighted IP on his acetate but ignored the fact he then produced 750 of them  stuck it onto 750 comics - whose IP is  owned by a  another publisher-  without approval to  turn a profit. 

if you go to print  making your own product by modifying  someone's IP without permission or license  you are in the firing line for number of potential claims. 

I'm speaking from position of being in a company that had to settle an IP claim for misrepresenting a brand in a marketing image that had less exposure than this book  

I would agree except the comic (pre-acetate) was a licensed Black Flag exclusive. So it's not a question of copyright infringement, but more a matter of them violating the terms of a licensing agreement by making an unapproved modification. Same as if a toy manufacturer that had a license to make and sell Batman figures started selling versions with a gun instead of the batarang or something. that's not copyright infringement (like it would be if it was just some random toy company with no such license). But it should and hopefully will land them in hot water as a pretty blatant and stupid license violation.

[wardevil0]

Also, it may be worth mentioning that it's up to the copyright holder to decide what they think violates their copyright, and historical precedent is all over the place.  DC owns Captain Marvel because a judge decided The Big Red Cheese was too derivative of Superman, but DC can't sell his comic as "Captain Marvel" because another company that came along much later started putting that word on its covers. 

Marvel sued Jim Shooter's Defiant out of existence because "Plasm" and "Warriors of Plasm" were said to be too close to "Plasmer."  Marvel lost, but forced Defiant to spend so much on legal fees they couldn't continue to operate.  This was done purely to spite Jim Shooter and eliminate a competitor on the marketplace.

My point is, even if there is dubious legal standing for Marvel to do anything, if they want to, they can, and it would likely be catastrophic for Black Flag.

[MGH]

On 8/11/2022 at 6:32 PM, Skwerl said:

I would agree except the comic (pre-acetate) was a licensed Black Flag exclusive. So it's not a question of copyright infringement, but more a matter of them violating the terms of a licensing agreement by making an unapproved modification. Same as if a toy manufacturer that had a license to make and sell Batman figures started selling versions with a gun instead of the batarang or something. that's not copyright infringement (like it would be if it was just some random toy company with no such license). But it should and hopefully will land them in hot water as a pretty blatant and stupid license violation.

Agree.. He mentioned he hadn't used any copyright stuff in his acetate  print so hes in the clear and  I was watching video   thinking ' but they haven't approved use of their IP in this way surely'. 

[MGH]

I'm certain if marvel decided to come at him, he wouldn't have a leg to stand on..   Its just whether they want to 

Edited August 11, 2022 by MGH

[Skwerl]

On 8/10/2022 at 8:26 PM, BoognishRises said:

They very well could. The contract stipulates that the books are yours to do whatever with. They become the retailer's property after the contract is signed and the books paid for.

Did you see the contract, or are you just talking out of your butt here?

On 8/10/2022 at 8:31 PM, BoognishRises said:

I'm not saying he was working with Marvel. I'm saying that he signed a contract and paid for those books originally, about a year ago. Those books are now the property of the retailer. They are free to do as they please with them. BUT..... they can't go and add something to it that represents Marvel without their permission. That would then be copyright infringement. 

But to add a generic acetate that has things printed on it that do NOT represent Marvel or their likeness... they're almost certainly safe.

Nonsense. "Almost certainly" nothing. All depends on the contract/agreement. I would imagine there was at least some boilerplate to ensure that Marvel absolutely 100% has final say on what goes up on shelves, but I can't say for sure how ironclad that is without seeing the contract. But to say that the books are the property of the retailer in this context is laughably ignorant of how IP works. The books are Black Flag's to do whatever they want with, sure. But Black Flag's license to sell them surely has clearly defined parameters and boundaries.

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 8/10/2022 at 5:05 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

I’m glad these influencer snowflakes are getting a taste of internet outrage.  Enjoying their inability to deal with it even more.   Their sense of self-importance needed some adjustments...

"Influencers" are textbook narcissists, and I love seeing a narcissist choke on their own pride.

[Sigur Ros]

On 8/11/2022 at 5:48 AM, peted76 said:

He's changed the image of an official comic and derogated the comic and the Marvel brand. It's like someone changing the coke tag line to 'In Coke we intrust' and making money off it.. you think the Coke laywers would let that slide? 

Edit - .. well to be fair.. I guess we'll find out. I'm not sure they'll follow it up, but if I were Black Flag I would be sweating right about now.

I understand what you're saying but what about a remarque.. Someone draws on a cover and it cost someone $85 to have it done.  Is Marvel going to be mad?  This happens all the time.  Cons, signings, mail-ins, pre-drawn, etc.  I never hear of a Marvel lawsuit. 

Someone will say "but it's 750", so they must know of the line not to cross.  2? 3? 499?  I don't know that line.  But I don't see this acetate cover being any different from a sketch on the cover.  Neither are approved, neither are licensed. One just made the news because of a couple Whatnot sellers' greedy selfishness being called out by collectors. 

But I do agree.  We may find out what happens, if anything. No one in here knows.  My guess is he'll be asked to stop and will be left with a few hundred variants he is pulling staples out of, or trashing.  But that's just a guess. 

[Ken Aldred]

On 8/10/2022 at 5:34 PM, DrunkWooky said:

 

Wish I’d thought of that one.

[MGH]

On 8/11/2022 at 6:55 PM, Sigur Ros said:

I understand what you're saying but what about a remarque.. Someone draws on a cover and it cost someone $85 to have it done.  Is Marvel going to be mad?  This happens all the time.  Cons, signings, mail-ins, pre-drawn, etc.  I never hear of a Marvel lawsuit. 

Someone will say "but it's 750", so they must know of the line not to cross.  2? 3? 499?  I don't know that line.  But I don't see this acetate cover being any different from a sketch on the cover.  Neither are approved, neither are licensed. One just made the news because of a couple Whatnot sellers' greedy selfishness being called out by collectors. 

But I do agree.  We may find out what happens, if anything. No one in here knows.  My guess is he'll be asked to stop and will be left with a few hundred variants he is pulling staples out of, or trashing.  But that's just a guess. 

The line is usually understood as 1.   

1 off, never to be repeated and usually for personal use but sketches and remarks fall into that generally speaking 

750 is whole different court 

[MGH]

I wonder if we will ever get statement from  Clayton Crain on his take on what his commission was for and if he knew he was being dragged into this 

[Lirion]

On 8/10/2022 at 7:22 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

Isn’t it their job to know whether or not a comic is legit before slabbing it?

Which has been my point in most of my comments in the thread. Before even getting to the integrity of their grades, that the books received a blue label versus a green to me is a bigger issue since it's something that should happen before the book is graded. Book comes in, grader gives a quick look and notices the multiple staples and acetate cover, investigates if Marvel released an acetate cover version by Crain, determines they did not, checks the box for green label with note of "PRINTED ACETATE COVER STAPLED TO BOOK; 2 ADDITIONAL STAPLES", and then continues on with grading.   That the book past the "is it legit" stage to continue grading with a blue label is what baffles me.

[ygogolak]

On 8/10/2022 at 3:34 PM, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

If re-sellers are having issues re-selling, what do you think is going to happen to sales of the next acetate frankenvariant?

It won’t be sold in the first place since there are already many rumors of action being taken against the dealer?

[ygogolak]

On 8/10/2022 at 2:38 PM, MrBedrock said:

And then bad press happens, listings get pulled, grading companies get slammed, quasi-publishers get roasted, values plummet, returns roll in.

Viola, Bad speculation !

 

Um, that’s not speculation. That’s market reaction.

People use speculation in comics a lot now and don’t seem to know what it means. It’s not speculation once there evidence, like the other dealers sending emails before the show selling them for $200.

the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence.

[the authority]

It’s amazing that a book is first stapled, folded, unfolded, stapled again, then folded a second time will still get a 10.0.

 

is there anyone here that works in this type of printing process who will explain how difficult it would be to end up with this result ? Having sent in more than 1000 books to be graded and never receiving anything higher than a 9.8, this pushes the boundaries of belief. That original cover’s gold line would doubtlessly be stressed. Or not  

Edited August 11, 2022 by the authority

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 8/10/2022 at 10:22 PM, Buzzetta said:

@Calamerica

 

Is Cal the guy who's gonna staple acetate to all those Iron Man & Sub-Mariner #1s?

[MGH]

On 8/11/2022 at 7:09 PM, Lirion said:

Which has been my point in most of my comments in the thread. Before even getting to the integrity of their grades, that the books received a blue label versus a green to me is a bigger issue since it's something that should happen before the book is graded. Book comes in, grader gives a quick look and notices the multiple staples and acetate cover, investigates if Marvel released an acetate cover version by Crain, determines they did not, checks the box for green label with note of "PRINTED ACETATE COVER STAPLED TO BOOK; 2 ADDITIONAL STAPLES", and then continues on with grading.   That the book past the "is it legit" stage to continue grading with a blue label is what baffles me.

Probably spent too much time negotiating  price for all the 10s and 9.9s so they just printed the labels and  sent out the moment  they settled on invoice amount 

Edited August 11, 2022 by MGH

[GACollectibles]

On 8/11/2022 at 12:12 AM, DrunkWooky said:

Then the deluge of unqualified certainties and overconfident absolutes drowned me out dozens of pages ago. 

Welcome to the boards!

[Sigur Ros]

On 8/11/2022 at 7:02 AM, MGH said:

The line is usually understood as 1.   

1 off, never to be repeated and usually for personal use but sketches and remarks fall into that generally speaking 

750 is whole different court 

Artists sit for hours drawing remarques.  The line is clearly higher than 1 and they aren't doing it for personal use. They are charging money for them.  Same as this UF4. 

[Sigur Ros]

On 8/11/2022 at 7:05 AM, MGH said:

I wonder if we will ever get statement from  Clayton Crain on his take on what his commission was for and if he knew he was being dragged into this 

If he new? 

Pretty well known he knew.  He's the one who mentioned it before the con. 

 

[Ryan.]

On 8/11/2022 at 7:30 AM, GACollectibles said:

Welcome to the boards!

If you and I text each other while standing near the Blag Flack booth, does that qualify us enough as influencers to buy ten copies of their Acetate Comics #1?