C2E2 Variant Drama 24 24

[CJ Design]

On 8/25/2022 at 12:31 PM, The Meta said:

Thats because people are stupid 

Let them be stupid, the rest of us know what to do

Indeed....

[troydivision1]

On 8/25/2022 at 1:27 PM, Dr. Balls said:

CGC is actually getting pretty lucky with Black Flag taking most of the heat and deflecting the fact that:

A) the book should be a GLOD and

B) there is some seriously hinkey stuff going on behind the 9.9 and 10 grades.

We still talk about those two things, but they don’t seem to be sticking as much.

C) CGC knowingly went into an agreement with Clayton Crain (an annual Signature Series artist with his own 'menu' AND co-owner of the company credited for the 'variant') who augmented a book without Marvel's permission.
C part 2) Crain then dropped out of each convention the books were to make their debut at.

One could say this entire fiasco came down to 'you scratch my back, I'll give you a better percentage of my $255 signing fee'...

[DoctorWyoming1]

On 8/24/2022 at 9:54 AM, shadroch said:

They don't simply use the best cover. If you look you will find examples where the grade was less than either cover because of problems in the interior.

The question concerned whether a superior interior cover would win out over the outside cover. I provided an example demonstrating that it does. 

Edited August 25, 2022 by DoctorWyoming1

[Domo Arigato]

On 8/23/2022 at 1:57 PM, Ed Hanes said:

On 8/23/2022 at 1:32 PM, theCapraAegagrus said:

Simple statistical analysis for the latter.

well, you would have to take an extensive poll to apply a statistical application (probably a gaussian distribution and adjust for major bias, it would be difficult given the amount of feedback bias exhibited on this thread), and one of the raw only comic collecting community too (which would help with bias)...as well as those who don't have anything to do with these boards. My sense is that you used 99.9% the way people use the word 'most'..but still without any substantial evidence/data and more as anecdotally

I think @THE_BEYONDERwas wanting to create the next one to qualify for the prize.  Although he'll probably want to create a "preliminary" poll first to make sure a gaussian distribution is what most board members want.  A second "preliminary" poll will probably be required as well.....to see where the "raw collecting community" poll should take place for the best results.  And we'll probably also need a third "preliminary" poll....to see if a third primary poll is needed to address "those who don't have anything to do with these boards" (since some raw collectors might also participate in here).

Luckily for him, it's easy to satisfy all of the reasonable people in here.

Now.....get on it ! ! !

[JC25427N]

On 8/25/2022 at 4:48 PM, Troy.Division said:

C) CGC knowingly went into an agreement with Clayton Crain (an annual Signature Series artist with his own 'menu' AND co-owner of the company credited for the 'variant') who augmented a book without Marvel's permission.
C part 2) Crain then dropped out of each convention the books were to make their debut at.

One could say this entire fiasco came down to 'you scratch my back, I'll give you a better percentage of my $255 signing fee'...

Not that it makes things much better but I believe Crain's infinity (and other kind of variant signatures) signature predated his private signing events with CGC, he would do them at cons and people kept asking for it so he started charging (and then charging more) for it.

But I have no idea if this is actually true, just what I've heard through word of mouth 

[DoctorWyoming1]

On 8/24/2022 at 1:13 PM, Timely said:

I see an error on that label!

You mean, 7.0?  I thought they were just being informal with me seeing as we are pals by now. 

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 8/25/2022 at 4:52 PM, Domo Arigato said:

I think @THE_BEYONDERwas wanting to create the next one to qualify for the prize.  Although he'll probably want to create a "preliminary" poll first to make sure a gaussian distribution is what most board members want.  A second "preliminary" poll will probably be required as well.....to see where the "raw collecting community" poll should take place for the best results.  And we'll probably also need a third "preliminary" poll....to see if a third primary poll is needed to address "those who don't have anything to do with these boards" (since some raw collectors might also participate in here).

Luckily for him, it's easy to satisfy all of the reasonable people in here.

Now.....get on it ! ! !

[thehumantorch]

On 8/25/2022 at 2:52 PM, DoctorWyoming1 said:

Nobody said it did. The question concerned whether a superior interior cover would win out over the outside cover. It does. 

And in the case of these modern variants it's unlikely there will be anything wrong with the interiors as they've never been read or handled.  If you attach a acetate cover with great care you apparently have a excellent chance of constructing a 9.9 or 10.0 comic.  The grading results speak volumes.

[DoctorWyoming1]

On 8/25/2022 at 5:05 PM, thehumantorch said:

And in the case of these modern variants it's unlikely there will be anything wrong with the interiors as they've never been read or handled.  If you attach a acetate cover with great care you apparently have a excellent chance of constructing a 9.9 or 10.0 comic.  The grading results speak volumes.

Making his digression doubly moot. 

Or is it Moops? I think the word is Moops. 

[JollyComics]

This drama became a eternal debate but this might be a valuable lesson for CGC.

[Domo Arigato]

On 8/23/2022 at 8:35 PM, JC25427N said:

I'm not sure its even being talked about on the other boards (I don't go there either, but I just did a quick scan to see if it was being mentioned and it's possible I might have missed it), it was posted in that vendor's private facebook group. Which seems weird because whenever something happens here there's people from the other forums who can't post about it fast enough

Tryin go through the last 10 pages of this thread.....so not sure if this was addressed yet or not.

Somebody over there did "innocently" ask a question that looks like it led to some discussion on it. 

Just look for a thread titled "Facilitator Question".

 

[wombat]

On 8/25/2022 at 5:12 PM, JollyComics said:

This drama became a eternal debate but this might be a valuable lesson for CGC.

You think CGC will learn something from this? Was this the same thing they were supposed to learn with the invisible comic blunder. 

[eddly]

On 8/25/2022 at 9:54 PM, wombat said:

You think CGC will learn something from this? Was this the same thing they were supposed to learn with the invisible comic blunder. 

Lesson learned: Easier to grade invisible comics. Less risk for unauthorized versions.

[Sigur Ros]

On 8/24/2022 at 8:21 PM, FFB said:

I don't think CGC would have willingly gone along with the plan.  

So we're ignoring the grades that were likely prearranged ?

 

[Sigur Ros]

On 8/24/2022 at 7:30 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

I don’t think it’s fair to just pull the certs out from under the buyer.  The book was a ‘legitimate’ CGC Blue label Universal at the time of purchase.   I would think CGC would need to compensate that buyer for their own mistake.

No?

It may not seem fair but I'm sure there is some CGC fine print that states things can change.  So, in that case they may owe the submitter a relabel, but not any of the purchasers after the grading.  CGC isn't responsible for values or pricing, that's on the buyer.  Only for what the label says.  So they should offer to fix the label, nothing more.

Of course, the blue labels will hold value because of the notoriety and back story, thus a total zero people will take them up on the offer of a relabel  ;)

 

[Sigur Ros]

On 8/24/2022 at 8:00 PM, FFB said:

Personally, I think Black Flag should be the one reimbursing people.  They're the ones who sold the 9.9 for $1500, not CGC.  All CGC collected, as far as we know, was the grading fee.  

Black Flag sold 9.9 blue label books.  The fact that CGC later decided to change the labels is not Black Flag's fault.  

I don't think they're obligated , but it would be the right thing to do.  

Especially because they'd probably get more for them now.

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

On 8/22/2022 at 4:57 PM, CGC Mike said:

We appreciate everyone being patient with our follow-up regarding the Clayton Crain acetate covers. After discussions this past week, CGC will assign a Qualified Signature Series label to comics that contain an acetate cover by Mr. Crain, as well as his signature that has been witnessed by a CGC representative. This also applies to the Ultimate Fallout: Facsimile Edition #4 that sold in C2E2. The grade assigned will take into consideration the grade of the acetate cover as well as the interior book.  For members who have already submitted copies of the Ultimate Fallout issue to CGC, we will extend an opportunity to have Mr. Crain’s signature applied to their copies so they receive the Qualified Signature Series label. If a copy does not exhibit Mr. Crain’s witnessed signature, the book will receive a qualified grade. 

Going forward, CGC will only certify artist-created covers that are first approved by CGC, and those covers must be signed by the artist through the Signature Series program to receive the Qualified Signature Series label. The cover must be created by a published artist.

One of the big problems with this whole situation is that, since CGC has positioned itself as an authority in the comic collecting hobby, with grading just a small portion of the print run of these books, they have essentially lent an air of approval on the entire print run of these "editions," whether graded or not. I'm sure that there are at least some people whose decision on whether to buy the book, whether they intend to get it graded or not, was influenced in some way by recognizing that CGC essentially confirmed that it's not a bootleg by giving it a blue label. I doubt the book would have sold as well at $85 if essentially people recognized it for what it is. CGC needs to take its position in the industry more seriously and ask themselves *beforehand* what the ramifications may be for a decision they're considering.

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 8/26/2022 at 8:11 AM, Sigur Ros said:

It may not seem fair but I'm sure there is some CGC fine print that states things can change.  So, in that case they may owe the submitter a relabel, but not any of the purchasers after the grading.  CGC isn't responsible for values or pricing, that's on the buyer.  Only for what the label says.  So they should offer to fix the label, nothing more.

Of course, the blue labels will hold value because of the notoriety and back story, thus a total zero people will take them up on the offer of a relabel  ;)

 

You’re making me want one now...

[Sigur Ros]

On 8/26/2022 at 9:16 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

You’re making me want one now...

Don't settle for less than a 10  

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 8/26/2022 at 9:27 AM, Sigur Ros said:

Don't settle for less than a 10  

Wouldn’t think of it