CGC now featuring newsstand copy designation 6 6

[Lazyboy]

On 9/26/2022 at 5:57 PM, Dr. Balls said:

 

Very true. But the newsstand thing is a bit...extra. That's reeeeeeally a stretch to make them sound like they are some sort of rare item. Classifying exclusivity of your book based on whether it was purchased at a comic shop or a grocery store is nearing the absolute point of desperation in determining value. I don't disagree with the numbers, I disagree with the importance of those numbers, and the hype people have tried to generate with them. What's next? The valuation of metallic compounds in the metal used in the staples? What about *who* you bought it from? If you bought it from a man, or a woman, or the even-rarer "I bought this from a female comic book shop owner!" That could be one of the rarest rare rarities ever slabbed at CGC!

I mean, we laughed long and heartily over the idiotic CVS sticker when it first came out, and here we are eight years later and there's another company doing the same thing - so the joke is on me. I never thought CVS would even survive because I didn't think there were enough people in the world to pay actual money for someone to say "boy, your book looks great for the grade!".

I'm not a fan of moving the chains of collectibility of things. If people continually re-define or re-classify the parameters of a hobby, that's generally a sign of something negative happening.

 

There's nothing wrong with collecting Newsstands, in and of itself. Stripe fetishists deserve the same respect and understanding as everybody else.

[Lazyboy]

On 9/26/2022 at 6:48 PM, DougC said:

Has anyone told Chuck about this new development?

I think he wrote part of the announcement.

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 9/26/2022 at 6:44 PM, Lazyboy said:

They're still all just Newsstands, except for the rare issues like these. The thousands of issues that are priced differently than Directs are not special, they just have a slight, extra, trivial difference.

And that's what made this fun for those who can't buy big books often enough. Made me hit bin stores and ask questions, I'm really going to miss that most of all. I mean it'll still happen I suppose, but it is a dump truck feeling that I'm sure still has finer notes still in there with the ones you mentioned. I came late to the party on those, to the point, I sold them to boardies who were looking to complete sets.

I guess we can expect closer looks on those that still differ in price, instead of having to call to have them notated correctly. I got a few added to the census, not high grade, but it was a hunt and this seems to generalize across the board. I'm glad you pointed to that thread, as I do not know how common that knowledge is, especially to those who now have to sort it out among the potential thousands of new "newsstand edition" labels.

It's kind of disheartening because there seemed a deeper meaning there at one time

 

[paqart]

On 9/26/2022 at 3:03 PM, andamovie said:

I would applaud CGC for doing what was desired by the collecting base if a competitor didn't already do so years in advance.

I pity the new collectors out there that are going to pay premiums on newsstands from the 1980s. Not all newsstands are rare.

That's like saying, back when the Star Wars #1 35 cent price variant was first recognized as "less common" than the 30-cent price "I pity the new collectors out there that are going to pay premiums on 35-cent price variants. Not all 35 cent price variants are equally valuable."

How about all the collectors who did the research to figure out that these comics were rare and then scoured the market for copies? Is that work supposed to go unrecognized? And should those that follow gain the reward of those that bucked the trend by buying them when they could? I recall people on this board, many of them, mocking NS collectors as <word deleted by board moderation> who didn't understand rarity. If they get shut out now, that was their choice.

Edited September 27, 2022 by paqart

[paqart]

On 9/26/2022 at 7:52 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

And that's what made this fun for those who can't buy big books often enough. Made me hit bin stores and ask questions, I'm really going to miss that most of all. I mean it'll still happen I suppose, but it is a dump truck feeling that I'm sure still has finer notes still in there with the ones you mentioned. I came late to the party on those, to the point, I sold them to boardies who were looking to complete sets.

I guess we can expect closer looks on those that still differ in price, instead of having to call to have them notated correctly. I got a few added to the census, not high grade, but it was a hunt and this seems to generalize across the board. I'm glad you pointed to that thread, as I do not know how common that knowledge is, especially to those who now have to sort it out among the potential thousands of new "newsstand edition" labels.

It's kind of disheartening because there seemed a deeper meaning there at one time

 

I was making a serious effort to find those for a couple of years. It took so much time to find even one that I eventually gave up on them after finding around 10 out of the 36. I'm still missing 2 of the ASM issues (both $2.29 variants) and would like to get the Thors after finding only one. I have the Hulk #8 in $2.49, an FF#26, a Cable, and an X-Men. I saw (and posted here) the 2 ASM issues I'm missing, both priced too high for me. Here are some photos. There are a couple of others mixed in here but if you read the other thread, you'll know which is which. Note that about half are described as price variants on the label. The others aren't.

[CGC Mike]

On 9/26/2022 at 3:07 PM, Wall-Crawler said:

@CGC Mike what about the blank UPC variants/editions? I did not see those referenced...

I will check.

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 9/26/2022 at 7:58 PM, CGC Mike said:

I will check.

That would solve those pesky star wars 35 "variants" that are not variants, but are mislabeled 

[andamovie]

On 9/26/2022 at 7:09 PM, paqart said:

That's like saying, back when the Star Wars #1 35 cent price variant was first recognized as "less common" than the 30-cent price "I pity the new collectors out there that are going to pay premiums on 35-cent price variants. Not all 35 cent price variants are equally valuable."

How about all the collectors who did the research to figure out that these comics were rare and then scoured the market for copies? Is that work supposed to go unrecognized? And should those that follow gain the reward of those that bucked the trend by buying them when they could? I recall people on this board, many of them, mocking NS collectors as <word deleted by board moderation> who didn't understand rarity. If they get shut out now, that was their choice.

You quoted me on saying I pity the new collectors out there that are going to pay premiums on newsstands from the 1980s. Not all newsstands are rare. You are comparing the 1980s newsstands with a Star Wars #1 and those aren't close in similarity. Your analogy would be more appropriate if I said I pity new collectors that are going to pay premiums on newsstands from the late 2000s. I think newsstands from the later 1990s to 2000s are genuinely rare and worth the premium. But when nearly three-quarters to half of the total print run is a newsstand vs direct in the 1980s when direct is being implemented, how do you make the same case for rarity? There are a lot of uneducated collectors out there that are just going to associate newsstand and a barcode with being valuable without regard to rarity. If you don't believe me, just check eBay.

[Etreiw]

The news is kinda of cool, sent these 2 comics down for a signature signing of Mr. Dan Jurgens sooooo I should see more info on the yellow label....

[Sigur Ros]

On 9/26/2022 at 5:49 PM, Dr. Balls said:

"We will also be offering complimentary instructional how-to booklets covering topics of: turning on a lightswitch, how to use a doorknob and the correct way to use a fork."

I've been reading the CGC forums long enough to know that couldn't hurt.

[seanlinc]

On 9/27/2022 at 12:00 AM, andamovie said:

You quoted me on saying I pity the new collectors out there that are going to pay premiums on newsstands from the 1980s. Not all newsstands are rare. You are comparing the 1980s newsstands with a Star Wars #1 and those aren't close in similarity. Your analogy would be more appropriate if I said I pity new collectors that are going to pay premiums on newsstands from the late 2000s. I think newsstands from the later 1990s to 2000s are genuinely rare and worth the premium. But when nearly three-quarters to half of the total print run is a newsstand vs direct in the 1980s when direct is being implemented, how do you make the same case for rarity? There are a lot of uneducated collectors out there that are just going to associate newsstand and a barcode with being valuable without regard to rarity. If you don't believe me, just check eBay.

So this touches on a question I have. Do we know the numbers of newsstand vs direct by year factoring in newsstands not sold? I get the concept that generally direct would likely be more abundant in higher grades but am curious what the actual numbers say about rarity.

[wardevil0]

On 9/27/2022 at 7:40 AM, seanlinc said:

So this touches on a question I have. Do we know the numbers of newsstand vs direct by year factoring in newsstands not sold? I get the concept that generally direct would likely be more abundant in higher grades but am curious what the actual numbers say about rarity.

No one really knows, and given how returns were processed it's impossible to know precisely. There are also discrepancies per comic, as some just sold better on newsstands.  Amazing Spider-Man sells well everywhere, but a specifically for-kids comic would sell better at the newsstand.  There would also be fewer high-grade copies remaining, because of the target audience.  As a part of their justification for overpricing newsstands, Mile High has an article that's not bad in itself, but relies heavily on his "experience," which is not necessarily "evidence." 

https://www.milehighcomics.com/newsletter/031513.html

Their breakdown:

Year	% Newsstand	%Direct Market
1979	94%	6%
1982	80%	20%
1986	50%	50%
1990	15%	85%
1995	10%	90%
2000	5%	95%
2005	2%	98%
2013	1%	99%

 

Above and beyond the simple production distribution, Mile High factors the likelihood of survival in VF or better.  It's pretty easy to find any given copy of Amazing Spider-Man 193 in Newsstand, but much harder to find one collectors would consider "high grade."  How much harder?  Unknowable.

[Lazyboy]

On 9/27/2022 at 7:05 AM, wardevil0 said:

 

Year	% Newsstand	%Direct Market
1979	94%	6%
1982	80%	20%
1986	50%	50%
1990	15%	85%
1995	10%	90%
2000	5%	95%
2005	2%	98%
2013	1%	99%

 

This is exactly the problem I've mentioned. Once again, this is 100% complete nonsense.

[CGC Mike]

On 9/26/2022 at 3:07 PM, Wall-Crawler said:

@CGC Mike what about the blank UPC variants/editions? I did not see those referenced...

If you are referring to the early Marvels around 1979 that have a blank box, those are included in the newsstand variant. Most appeared on only one issue in each run (or zero issues) before the slash began being used. This was mentioned in the newsletter:

 

From the beginning of direct distribution in 1979 until the mid 1990s, most direct editions displayed different attributes in place of the UPC code, including a blank box, a box with art or text, or a UPC code with a line through it.

 

If you are referring to the pre-pack Marvels from 1977-1979, those will be labeled “pre-pack edition”. This was also covered in the news release.

 

[seanlinc]

Kind of begs the question if my pristine but otherwise unremarkable mostly X titles that I bought from a literal "newsstand" in the food court at the mall in the mid 90s would be worth taking a flier on a prescreen submission fishing for 9.8s?

[paqart]

On 9/27/2022 at 12:00 AM, andamovie said:

You quoted me on saying I pity the new collectors out there that are going to pay premiums on newsstands from the 1980s. Not all newsstands are rare. You are comparing the 1980s newsstands with a Star Wars #1 and those aren't close in similarity. Your analogy would be more appropriate if I said I pity new collectors that are going to pay premiums on newsstands from the late 2000s. I think newsstands from the later 1990s to 2000s are genuinely rare and worth the premium. But when nearly three-quarters to half of the total print run is a newsstand vs direct in the 1980s when direct is being implemented, how do you make the same case for rarity? There are a lot of uneducated collectors out there that are just going to associate newsstand and a barcode with being valuable without regard to rarity. If you don't believe me, just check eBay.

I was reacting to the idea as it related to later newsstands. That said, though I wouldn't describe 1980's newsstands as "rare", they are less common in the market, particularly in high grade, than directs. That is despite having significantly higher print runs. Survivability seems to be more more germane to rarity than print runs when it comes to newsstand editions, which seem to have been treated like old newspapers by the people who originally bought them. I don't know how else to explain a print run that heavily favors newsstands (95% newsstand to 5% direct) turning into market availability of 1:1. If one assumes that all of the directs survived, that example indicates a destruction rate of 18:1.

Searching eBay and painstakingly counting directs vs. newsstands, which I have done for hundreds of comics, will bear this out. As I wrote in another post, there are certain issues that appear in approximately equal numbers, like ASM 252, but these are exceptions. In some cases, the newsstand appears more often than direct but the difference is so slight that it is within the margin of error. More often, there will be between 30-50 direct editions available for every 1 newsstand issue, even in the 1980's. This declines significantly from 1999 onward, to anywhere from around 30 directs to 1 newsstand on the low end to any number of directs to no newsstands at all over a period of 12 months or more on the high end.

[Sigur Ros]

On 9/27/2022 at 10:09 AM, seanlinc said:

Kind of begs the question if my pristine but otherwise unremarkable mostly X titles that I bought from a literal "newsstand" in the food court at the mall in the mid 90s would be worth taking a flier on a prescreen submission fishing for 9.8s?

I don't know why the word "newsstand" on the label would make a book more or less desirable for grading.

A newsstand is a newsstand, regardless of the label.

[Dr. Balls]

This discussion jarred loose a few memories from the olden days. One, I had a fellow comic collector and shop owner who hated newsstands (in the 90s) because he felt the UPC cheapened the look of the book, and he always went for direct market books for his personal collection.

And two, in my local area, and it likely has no bearing whatsoever - but worth mentioning: our one-and-only LCS in the late 80's and early 90's purchased their weekly books through a magazine distributor and not through Diamond or Capitol (I think that was the name of the other one at the time). Not that anyone cared at the time, but all his books would have been newsstand editions. By the mid-90's there were three comic shops in our city (I was one of them) and we all had ordered via Diamond.

[paqart]

On 9/27/2022 at 7:40 AM, seanlinc said:

So this touches on a question I have. Do we know the numbers of newsstand vs direct by year factoring in newsstands not sold? I get the concept that generally direct would likely be more abundant in higher grades but am curious what the actual numbers say about rarity.

Comichron provides distribution estimates. Keep in mind that with newsstands, destruction (or survivability) may be more important than print run. I prefer to look at market availability than to attempt to estimate how many were made. As a collector, what matters to me is whether I can find the comic in a reasonable amount of time, not how many were printed. Keep in mind that many Golden Age comics, including the now super-rare early Action, Detective, Whiz, Superman, Batman, Marvel Mystery, and Green Lantern comics were printed in the millions. They had much higher print runs than anything published today but are far less available on the market. 

Some observations about newsstand availability (Direct:Newsstand):

X-Men #266/1990 (1st Gambit): less than 9.2 7:1, 9.2 and above, 81:1

X-Men #222/1987 (Wolverine vs. Sabretooth): less than 9.2 2:1, 9.2 and up 29:1

Daredevil #159/1979 (2nd Frank Miller): 9.2 and up 1.75:1

Teen Titans #2/1980 (1st Deathstroke): less than 9.2 1.29:1, 9.2 and up 1.24:1

ASM #300/1988 (1st full Venom): less than 9.2 1.57:1, 9.2 and up 15.38:1

ASM #298/1988 (1st McMarlane): less than 9.2 2.00:1, 9.2 and up 28.67:1

ASM #301/1988 (classic cover): less than 9.2 2.63:1, 9.2 and up 53:1

Most of these comics from the 1980's are around 1.5-2.0 directs for every newsstands in lower grades. In high grades, availability drops to from 15-80 directs for every newsstand, making some of them genuinely rare.

From 1999 onward, the minimum rarity for newsstands is about 35:1 regardless of condition, extending up to serious questions about whether certain comics were published in a newsstand edition because none have been offered for sale in a year or more. Counting these is an exercise in frustration because it takes so long to find a single example.

 

 

 

[valiantman]

On 9/27/2022 at 10:49 AM, paqart said:

ASM #300/1988 (1st full Venom): less than 9.2 1.57:1, 9.2 and up 15.38:1

@paqart has put in the work, and he's far more trustworthy than the "but I don't like it" posts, where every post is just to poop on all of it... (and rip off Triumph The Insult Comic Dog in the process)

For those readers of this topic who prefer pictures with their statistics, here's how it looked a few years ago... (2016, 2018, 2020)

... creating more statistics (but also another pretty picture)...

Edited September 27, 2022 by valiantman