What is the 12th page and why is it missing? 1 1

[phantomdj]

I seen a lot of SA marvel (especially X-Men) with Green Qualified Labels stating "Page 12 missing, does not affect story". What is the12th page and how does it affect the value?

I've also seen "Page 16 missing, does not affect story" and "3rd wrap missing". What is the 3rd wrap?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Get Marwood & I]

Imagine a comic that has 36 pages. Forget any numbering on the actual story pages themselves for a moment, and concentrate just on the physical paper pages that make up that comic.

Page 1 is the front cover, page 2 the inside of the front cover, page 3 is what is often referred to as the 'splash' page - usually the first page of the story - etc etc, all the way through to the back cover which is page 36.

A wrap is the term for each single sheet of paper which is folded in half to form part of the comic. Each wrap, when folded, represents four of the overall 36 comic pages. So a 36 page comic will be made up of 9 folded wraps, stapled together.

The first wrap of our 36 page comic is the cover. It's the single sheet of paper that comprises, when folded, the front cover (page 1), inside front cover (page 2), inside back cover (page 35) and back cover (page 36).

When a CGC label says "3rd wrap missing", in the case of our 36 page comic, that would mean the comic would be missing pages 5, 6 and 31, 32. Instead of having 9 wraps, it would have only eight. That may be the result of a manufacturing error or it may be because an owner pulled that wrap out. Perhaps there was a coupon, or poster on it that they liked.

When a CGC label says "Page 16 missing, does not affect story", that means that someone has removed page 16 from the comic. By definition, that means that page 15 will also be missing, as a single page (one half of one folded wrap) comprises two pages. It's not technically possible to remove one printed page (sometimes called a leaf) without removing what is on the other side of it.

A missing page/leaf may comprise adverts on both sides - hence removing it 'does not affect the story'. In the main, collectors hate missing pages and it drastically affects the value of a comic, especially if part of the story is missing. Imagine the page with Wolverine's first appearance missing in the final story panel of Hulk #180. 

Anyway, it's not easy to put into words, so here is a shockingly bad attempt from me to draw the composition of a 36 page, 9 wrap comic:

Hope it helps!

 

[phantomdj]

Excellent write-up and description!  That explains it completely. Thank you!

[Yorick]

On 11/1/2022 at 4:43 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

Hope it helps!

You deserve another "community answer" point for this one! 

[Yorick]

@Get Marwood & I  PS. "Center Spread" 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 11/2/2022 at 12:52 AM, Yorick said:

@Get Marwood & I  PS. "Center Spread" 

Only if you were BAAAARN INNER YOU ESSAY!

[zzutak]

On 11/1/2022 at 4:43 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

When a CGC label says "3rd wrap missing", in the case of our 36 page comic, that would mean the comic would be missing pages 5, 6 and 31, 32.

Not quite.  When it comes to label notes, CGC begins its wrap numbering with the outermost interior wrap.  They ignore the cover.  So CGC's "3rd wrap" would actually be pages 7-8 and 29-30 of your sketch. 

On 11/1/2022 at 4:43 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

When a CGC label says "Page 16 missing, does not affect story", that means that someone has removed page 16 from the comic. By definition, that means that page 15 will also be missing, as a single page (one half of one folded wrap) comprises two pages. It's not technically possible to remove one printed page (sometimes called a leaf) without removing what is on the other side of it.

Not quite.  A 36-page Silver Age issue consists of a front/back cover and 8 interior wraps (aka 16 interior leaves or 32 interior pages).  CGC has always mistakenly referred to a "leaf" as a "page".  So when a CGC label says "PAGE 16 MISSING", what they mean to indicate is that interior leaf 16 is missing -- the comic is missing interior pages 31/32 (the final interior "sheet" before the back cover).

The classic example is CGC's labeling of a Hulk #181 that's missing it's Marvel Value Stamp: "MARVEL VALUE STAMP MISSING FROM PAGE 10".  What this label note really indicates is that the MVS is missing from leaf 10 -- that there's a cut-out on interior pages 19/20.

 

Offered with only good intentions and nothing but respect.   

[Get Marwood & I]

 

On 11/2/2022 at 9:51 AM, zzutak said:

Offered with only good intentions and nothing but respect.   

I knew I'd sod it up 

No worries at all, Zzu - thanks for the corrections 

Is that a CGC only thing by the way, not including the cover as a wrap, or have I always had that wrong? 

@phantomdj - sorry for the misleading answer - see Zzutak's comments above. It seems that CGC always have their own terminology and way of doing things so you may have to perform some additional mental gymnastics if you ever want to work out exactly what content is missing in a slabbed, qualified book! 

[zzutak]

On 11/2/2022 at 4:08 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

Is that a CGC only thing by the way, not including the cover as a wrap, or have I always had that wrong?

In the real world, the cover is a wrap (and it also counts as 4 pages).    In CGC's world, the cover is only a cover. 

I've railed against CGC's misuse of the term "page" for years, often via posts on these very Boards.  And yes, my use of the term "misuse" is accurate and intentional, as every comic book publisher has always used the term "page" to refer to one side of one leaf.    However, to their credit, CGC has been consistent in its use of the term since the company was founded.

[Get Marwood & I]

On 11/2/2022 at 12:08 PM, zzutak said:

In the real world, the cover is a wrap (and it also counts as 4 pages).    In CGC's world, the cover is only a cover. 

I've railed against CGC's misuse of the term "page" for years, often via posts on these very Boards.  And yes, my use of the term "misuse" is accurate and intentional, as every comic book publisher has always used the term "page" to refer to one side of one leaf.    However, to their credit, CGC has been consistent in its use of the term since the company was founded.

I've done some railing against CGC myself over the years, not that they ever listen. Your page/leaf argument is clear and well made, so it doesn't surprise me in the least that they've ignored it! 

[Brandon Shepherd]

I’m not a noob here but I’m glad I started reading the topic posts in this section of the boards, because I’m learning and relearning things here! 

[OtherEric]

On 11/2/2022 at 4:08 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

 

I knew I'd sod it up 

No worries at all, Zzu - thanks for the corrections 

Is that a CGC only thing by the way, not including the cover as a wrap, or have I always had that wrong? 

@phantomdj - sorry for the misleading answer - see Zzutak's comments above. It seems that CGC always have their own terminology and way of doing things so you may have to perform some additional mental gymnastics if you ever want to work out exactly what content is missing in a slabbed, qualified book! 

I could be wrong... or just referring to how people I know use it... but I never have heard 1st wrap being used to mean the cover in describing a cover.  I've seen book dealers call the cover "wraps" , but always in the plural, and with no numbering.

Also, "wrap" is one of those words that starts to look really weird if you stare at it too long, but that's neither here nor there.

Edited November 2, 2022 by OtherEric

[Get Marwood & I]

See what you've gone and done, @phantomdj! 

[Yorick]

On 11/2/2022 at 1:35 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

Only if you were BAAAARN INNER YOU ESSAY!

We apologize for the fault in the subtitles.  Those responsible have been sacked.

[Get Marwood & I]

On 11/2/2022 at 3:44 PM, Yorick said:

We apologize for the fault in the subtitles.  Those responsible have been sacked.

Apologise 

[LowGradeBronze]

 This one's got legs....

Edited November 2, 2022 by LowGradeBronze
Added words

[phantomdj]

On 11/2/2022 at 11:40 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

See what you've gone and done, @phantomdj! 

Glad I could be of service!

I have to say as a noob I didn't even think to count pages so I was shocked when 2 of my X-men (#2 and #8) came back as "missing interior part/page/wrap (QUALIFIED) page(s) 12 does not affect story" (I still don't believe it) so...

... I immediately took out my X-men #1 and started counting the pages inside the cover...1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 before the staple! 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 after the staple. Wait, what? 7 and 8? Another X-Men missing a page and it's #1?!!! My heart sank as I thought of the amount of value this key grail book just lost. So I counted again and noticed I had been so light handed with the pages that the first time two pages didn't separate. There were 8 and 8 after all! I then took photos of every single page so when I send it to CGC there is no question about it. Whew!

Edited November 2, 2022 by phantomdj
typo