March 2023 heritage signature auction 5 5

[KirbyCollector]

On 4/3/2023 at 5:59 PM, dem1138 said:

Collusion at its best for the buyer but not the consignor.  As the person who was the consignor its not awesome to know that I was the victim in this scenario.  That being said, I've had an overwhelming amount of good fortune in this hobby so I don't mind giving back on this one.  Congrats to the winner!

I was one of the honest bidders in your auction. As someone who has been involved in over 50% of the JR JR UXM pages over the past year, I believe the price was more than fair -- and apparently all of the rest of the honest bidders agreed with me, otherwise we would have bid it higher. Speculation as to a value of 15K for this is without merit -- especially considering the full Phoenix splash went for 15600 in this same auction.

[gumbydarnit]

Friends having conversations about how high they would go on certian pieces, and agreeing not to drive the price up on who wants it more, seems to happen about as often as dealers randomly bidding up pieces to make sure the floor stays at a certain level for comic art. Seems like that is a natural way of most auctions, and in the end those two actions probably balance each other out.   

 

 

 

 

Edited April 4, 2023 by gumbydarnit

[vodou]

So…it’s okay if I bang your wife only occasionally as long as I don’t charge for it and we’re all friends?

[delekkerste]

On 4/4/2023 at 7:33 AM, KirbyCollector said:

I was one of the honest bidders in your auction. As someone who has been involved in over 50% of the JR JR UXM pages over the past year, I believe the price was more than fair -- and apparently all of the rest of the honest bidders agreed with me, otherwise we would have bid it higher. Speculation as to a value of 15K for this is without merit -- especially considering the full Phoenix splash went for 15600 in this same auction.

All of the JRJR UXM collectors I have spoken with thought it went light, including myself.  

I think many people would have preferred the all-out battle page from the memorable issue #200 with six X-Men (including Wolverine) than the single, 3rd-tier character splash with the Secret Wars II tie-in that people either don't care about or, like me, actively despise. The $7200 gap between where they ended just bolsters my & others' contention that the #200 page should have been $10K+ all day long and it looks like it would have been without the backroom maneuvering. 

Edited April 4, 2023 by delekkerste

[delekkerste]

On 4/4/2023 at 8:07 AM, vodou said:

So…it’s okay if I bang your wife only occasionally as long as I don’t charge for it and we’re all friends?

[delekkerste]

On 4/4/2023 at 12:19 AM, tth2 said:

Have you ever asked them to?

The number one rule of Collusion Club is that you do not talk about Collusion Club.  

 

 

 

 

Edited April 4, 2023 by delekkerste

[KirbyCollector]

On 4/4/2023 at 8:25 AM, delekkerste said:

All of the JRJR UXM collectors I have spoken with thought it went light, including myself.  

I think many people would have preferred the all-out battle page from the memorable issue #200 with six X-Men (including Wolverine) than the single, 3rd-tier character splash with the Secret Wars II tie-in that people either don't care about or, like me, actively despise. The #200 page should have been $10K+ all day long and it looks like it would have been without the backroom maneuvering. 

A page with a rushed look to the inking, Wolverine's butt, 2 panels of a wonky looking Rachel, and the top of Rogue's head was not worth my pushing the bid to 10 -- and all my "friends" in the actual auction agreed. 

[delekkerste]

On 4/4/2023 at 8:33 AM, KirbyCollector said:

A page with a rushed look to the inking, Wolverine's butt, 2 panels of a wonky looking Rachel, and the top of Rogue's head was not worth my pushing the bid to 10 -- and all my "friends" in the actual auction agreed. 

As far as JRJR UXM pages go (recognizing that the clean lines and tight inks of a Byrne/Austin or P. Smith/Wiacek combination are not the hallmark of JRJR/Green), the inking job on this page looks pretty darn good to me. I doubt you'll find many examples outside of issue #177 (when John Sr. inked over Jr.) that look meaningfully tighter than this page. And there is A LOT of detail and effects on this page - it looks the opposite of rushed; clearly both JRJR and Dan Green put a lot of time into this page.  

I'd be happy to pay $10K cash right now if the buyer is feeling any buyer's remorse for overpaying for such a mediocre page. The more I look at it the more I recognize what an excellent example it is and that I'd be happy to stump up a bit more than I tapped out at during the live auction to get it.  

[vodou]

On 4/4/2023 at 8:29 AM, delekkerste said:

 

 

Indeed, but also against Board rules (all boards actually, except Dark Web 😉) to solicit likely illegal activity…

[batman_fan]

Let’s say for the sake of argument I had a friend.  Now said said friend and I were talking about the upcoming HA auction and said friend mentions a piece they really want.  I was thinking of bidding on it but not with the same passion level as my friend.  I would pass on bidding on the piece.  Is that collusion?  Now if I really want the piece too then knowing my friend plans to bid hard for it I am forced with a tough decision.  Do I lock my friend in the basement until after the auction closes and would that be collusion?

[KirbyCollector]

On 4/4/2023 at 9:03 AM, delekkerste said:

The more I look at it the more I recognize what an excellent example it is and that I'd be happy to stump up a bit more than I tapped out at during the live auction to get it. 

So you either a) were part of the group which sought to manipulate the auction or b) you didn't think it was worth 10 at the time. That's quite a box you've put yourself in

[delekkerste]

On 4/4/2023 at 9:28 AM, KirbyCollector said:

So you either a) were part of the group which sought to manipulate the auction or b) you didn't think it was worth 10 at the time. That's quite a box you've put yourself in

That is some truly bizarre logic. 

(A) Not only was I not part of the group which sought to manipulate the auction, but, the consignor is a very good friend of mine. 

(B) As for why I didn't bid $10K+ during the auction, the answer is simple - I was keeping my powder dry for other pieces later in the sale and there's only so much money in the art budget. But, since the 2 main things I was after fell through (one due to being outbid and the other due to the HeritageLive technical glitch I mentioned), now I'd be happy to pay $10K for the UXM #200 page. Because it's worth every penny and more. 

Edited April 4, 2023 by delekkerste

[vodou]

On 4/4/2023 at 9:15 AM, batman_fan said:

Let’s say for the sake of argument I had a friend.  Now said said friend and I were talking about the upcoming HA auction and said friend mentions a piece they really want.  I was thinking of bidding on it but not with the same passion level as my friend.  I would pass on bidding on the piece.  Is that collusion?

Not if it’s just in your mind and you don’t discuss…

Edit: BTW I’m in this situation near daily with several friends. They do what they do but I’m always upfront about where my natural bid caps (letting them know they would need to be ready to go higher, np), if at all, or remain silent and bid my honest intention, same difference. They all know this about me, that my words and bids are always upfront and honest, that I don’t and won’t step aside or add bids to help a consignment or add pain to rivals, that I will bid up to my number though in anything of interest: all understood, no big deal, no messy divorces 😘

Edited April 4, 2023 by vodou

[KirbyCollector]

On 4/4/2023 at 9:47 AM, delekkerste said:

That is some truly bizarre logic. 

(A) Not only was I not part of the group which sought to manipulate the auction, but, the consignor is a very good friend of mine. 

(B) As for why I didn't bid $10K+ during the auction, the answer is simple - I was keeping my powder dry for other pieces later in the sale and there's only so much money in the art budget. But, since the 2 main things I was after fell through (one due to being outbid and the other due to the HeritageLive technical glitch I mentioned), now I'd be happy to pay $10K for the UXM #200 page. Because it's worth every penny and more. 

I am respectfully hanging up my Don Quixote hat on this one. Suffice to say price discovery won the day, the seller should be happy and the buyer got a page he wanted.

Edited April 4, 2023 by KirbyCollector

[Xatari]

On 4/3/2023 at 9:15 PM, Michael Browning said:

I didn’t know about the comic art cabals that made backroom deals to let Collector X have the shot at the next piece and then another collector gets a shot at the next piece and so on, until a friend explained the Legion of Super Heroes secret society and their acquisition rules and regulations.

I can honestly say no one collector or group of collectors has ever backed off of an auction for me.

Let's chat offline. 

[tth2]

On 4/4/2023 at 9:15 PM, batman_fan said:

Let’s say for the sake of argument I had a friend.  Now said said friend and I were talking about the upcoming HA auction and said friend mentions a piece they really want.  I was thinking of bidding on it but not with the same passion level as my friend.  I would pass on bidding on the piece.  Is that collusion?  Now if I really want the piece too then knowing my friend plans to bid hard for it I am forced with a tough decision.  Do I lock my friend in the basement until after the auction closes and would that be collusion?

Depends on if you're asking a holier than thou boardie with a stick up his bum.

[tth2]

On 4/4/2023 at 9:47 PM, delekkerste said:

now I'd be happy to pay $10K for the UXM #200 page. Because it's worth every penny and more. 

Okay, let's get rid of all of those claims of collusion once and for all.

I'll bid $10,001!

[vodou]

On 4/4/2023 at 10:36 AM, tth2 said:

Depends on if you're asking a holier than thou boardie with a stick up his bum.

Nah, I just need to be better than you, low bar 'n all

[Rick2you2]

On 4/4/2023 at 8:07 AM, vodou said:

So…it’s okay if I bang your wife only occasionally as long as I don’t charge for it and we’re all friends?

You can bang my ex-wife all you want, but I would recommend you get a tetanus shot first.

[Rick2you2]

On 4/4/2023 at 6:55 AM, vodou said:

Sorry to throw cold water on all this budding camaraderie but collusion rings can be illegal and most would agree are immoral…when others do it to them 😉

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/b/bidding-ring.asp

I am so hesitant to say anything about this after taking a beating on shilling, but technically, I agree with you. In fact, it’s even worse in bidding: read some public works spec’s, with required execution of affidavits of non-collusion, and get a sense of how the government doesn’t take kindly to it at all. I know a lawyer who also owns property, and he got involved in a bidding ring for tax foreclosure certificates. He was found guilty, lost his license and I think he was forced into home confinement for a year, plus presumably paying a stiff fine.

BUT, this is comic art where all sorts of dubious behavior exists, like dealers who pump up the bidding to protect the value of their own stock. There are enough interested parties for most pieces that no one is going to get an insane bargain even if there is a bidding ring, and it keeps friends from fighting. So, like speeding at 70 mph in a 60 mph zone, there are other things which I would pursue.