Overrated Key "First" Books 5 5

[southern cross]

On 1/28/2023 at 6:47 AM, trademarkcomics said:

5---4---3---2---1...

[Sigur Ros]

On 1/28/2023 at 5:13 AM, seanlinc said:

Haha but it's good to see just like the coin forums the Grammer police are on the job 👍

Um...

[Kripsys99]

On 1/28/2023 at 5:13 AM, seanlinc said:

Haha but it's good to see just like the coin forums the Grammer police are on the job 👍

 

On 1/28/2023 at 12:48 PM, Sigur Ros said:

Um...

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 1/28/2023 at 5:13 AM, seanlinc said:

Haha but it's good to see just like the coin forums the Grammer police are on the job 👍

[Kripsys99]

Our AI overlord has spoken. In response to the following prompt:

What comic book should be considered the definitive first appearance of the character Wolverine, and why?

ChatGPT provided the following response:

There you have it. The definitive word from our future AI master. I for one welcome our robot overlords in all of their infinite wisdom, despite the fact the above response appears to contain some incorrect info, and a seemingly contradictory final sentence.

Edited January 29, 2023 by Kripsys99
Eye doughn't spehl gud

[trademarkcomics]

Well, to put this issue to rest(yeah, right), my point of view is the following:

First, an appearance is just that, the character appears, as in they are seen. No shadows, or just a body part, or them in the process of getting empowered, etc. They are seen(at least their face) and preferably named. 

 

Regardless of what issue is the post popular and sought after introductory issue, these are the first published in-story appearances(no matter how brief) in our world of most of the characters/entities in question in this thread...

(Newsstand data provided by Mike's Amazing World)

Wolverine: Incredible Hulk #180, Newsstand Date: July 2, 1974

Gambit: X-Men Annual #14, Newsstand Date: May 29, 1990

Black Costume Symbiote: Amazing Spider-Man #252, Newsstand Date: January 31, 1984

Venom: Amazing Spider-Man #299, December 8, 1987

Phoenix: X-Men #101, July 20, 1976

Darkseid: Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen #134, October 13, 1970

Taskmaster: Avengers #195, February 19, 1980

James Rhodes: Iron Man #118, October 24, 1978

Wendell Vaughn: Captain America #217, Newsstand Date: October 11, 1977

 

If any of you can find an earlier published appearance then please continue discussing it. But as the progenitor of this here thread, I will no longer hear any more rubbish about how a cameo or brief appearance doesn't count or how a body part or preview in some magazine does count. And name changes should never be worth as much as a character's first appearance, now if they add a costume/powers change to that...maybe. 

 

All comments and ideas put forth in this post are the expressed opinions of the author and do not represent the views of CGC as a whole or pretty much anyone else for that matter.

 

 

[Lazyboy]

On 1/28/2023 at 9:43 PM, trademarkcomics said:

First, an appearance is just that, the character appears, as in they are seen. No shadows, or just a body part, or them in the process of getting empowered, etc. They are seen(at least their face) and preferably named. 

Well, now you're just superficially focusing on the art.  The art is obviously part of a comic story, but it's only part.

[trademarkcomics]

On 1/29/2023 at 12:21 PM, Lazyboy said:

Well, now you're just superficially focusing on the art.  The art is obviously part of a comic story, but it's only part.

Comics have been and always shall be predominately a visual medium just like TV and movies. We're not talking about a novel or a radio program. So the art may well be a "part" but it's easily 50% of the experience, but probably more. And even in novel or radio programs, if the character is simply described(and preferably named), then they have made an appearance in the story.

 

EDIT: And comic book collecting is superficial by default. If you think collecting should be deeper than that, then what are you doing on a forum of a site that champions superficiality(Grading the beauty of a comic book)?

 

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by trademarkcomics
More info

[Lazyboy]

On 1/29/2023 at 2:56 PM, trademarkcomics said:

Comics have been and always shall be predominately a visual medium just like TV and movies. We're not talking about a novel or a radio program. So the art may well be a "part" but it's easily 50% of the experience, but probably more. And even in novel or radio programs, if the character is simply described(and preferably named), then they have made an appearance in the story.

Since you've been the one focusing so much on the visual aspect of appearances, how does a character "appear" on the radio or in a novel?

But seriously, it's the character's presence in the story that matters. By your latest definition, Doomsday wouldn't actually appear until his, what, seventh appearance?

On 1/29/2023 at 2:56 PM, trademarkcomics said:

EDIT: And comic book collecting is superficial by default.

No, it isn't. Though some collectors certainly are.

On 1/29/2023 at 2:56 PM, trademarkcomics said:

If you think collecting should be deeper than that, then what are you doing on a forum of a site that champions superficiality(Grading the beauty of a comic book)?

This is the best comic forum overall. That's what brought me here. That it happens to be hosted by CGC is irrelevant.

[trademarkcomics]

 

 

Quote

Since you've been the one focusing so much on the visual aspect of appearances, how does a character "appear" on the radio or in a novel?

If a character is described sufficiently, I don't need to see them with my eyes to get a picture of what they look like. Hence they appear...in my mind.

Quote

But seriously, it's the character's presence in the story that matters. By your latest definition, Doomsday wouldn't actually appear until his, what, seventh appearance?

There are obviously exceptions to any rule. 

Quote

No, it isn't(Superficial by default). Though some collectors certainly are.

Nice. 

Quote

This is the best comic forum overall. That's what brought me here. That it happens to be hosted by CGC is irrelevant.

Ah. So you don't really care about what people here care about. It's downright shocking you don't along with anyone.

 

[Gatsby77]

 

On 1/29/2023 at 5:33 PM, Lazyboy said:

But seriously, it's the character's presence in the story that matters. By your latest definition, Doomsday wouldn't actually appear until his, what, seventh appearance?

This is one I'm actually okay with. If I recall correctly, the Doomsday "appearances" in the 5 weeks leading up to Man of Steel 18 simply showed his fist or arms punching on the last page. Put another way, I'm not sure we actually knew what he looked like until MoS 18. We certainly didn't in MoS 17.

That's not in the same league as say, Hulk 180, where Wolverine is referenced throughout the story, shows up - in full - in the last page, and talks.

If anything, claiming MoS 17 is Doomsday's first appearance is like saying Web of Spider-Man 18 is Venom's first appearance. 

[Kripsys99]

[trademarkcomics]

On 1/29/2023 at 3:31 PM, Gatsby77 said:

 

This is one I'm actually okay with. If I recall correctly, the Doomsday "appearances" in the 5 weeks leading up to Man of Steel 18 simply showed his fist or arms punching on the last page. Put another way, I'm not sure we actually knew what he looked like until MoS 18. We certainly didn't in MoS 17.

That's not in the same league as say, Hulk 180, where Wolverine is referenced throughout the story, shows up - in full - in the last page, and talks.

If anything, claiming MoS 17 is Doomsday's first appearance is like saying Web of Spider-Man 18 is Venom's first appearance. 

 

Quote

First, an appearance is just that, the character appears, as in they are seen. No shadows, or just a body part, or them in the process of getting empowered, etc.

I obviously agree, so I don't get why he brought Doomsday up*...

*Other than he's just looking to make trouble...again.

[trademarkcomics]

On 1/29/2023 at 3:53 PM, Kripsys99 said:

 

 

 

I'm trying not to, I promise I am. I've tried to ignore him but he attacks every one of my posts. I'm not here just to debate.

 

I like differing opinions, but I don't like personal attacks(on me or anyone else for that matter). I just go...

[Lazyboy]

On 1/29/2023 at 5:31 PM, Gatsby77 said:

This is one I'm actually okay with. If I recall correctly, the Doomsday "appearances" in the 5 weeks leading up to Man of Steel 18 simply showed his fist or arms punching on the last page. Put another way, I'm not sure we actually knew what he looked like until MoS 18. We certainly didn't in MoS 17.

Each of the four titles showed Doomsday punching his prison, which also damaged his hand/arm covering, on the final page of the issues before the Doomsday/Death of Superman story began. He broke free in StMoS 18, but only his hand was visible. His true form became progressively more visible over the course of the story.

On 1/29/2023 at 5:31 PM, Gatsby77 said:

That's not in the same league as say, Hulk 180, where Wolverine is referenced throughout the story, shows up - in full - in the last page, and talks.

Um... you mean once before the last page, and vaguely, at that?

Doomsday has a full page dedicated solely to him. Wolverine doesn't even have half of that.

On 1/29/2023 at 5:31 PM, Gatsby77 said:

If anything, claiming MoS 17 is Doomsday's first appearance is like saying Web of Spider-Man 18 is Venom's first appearance. 

Yeah, they are there in those issues. Briefly, partially, mysteriously, and not part of the main story in those issues, but there.

[Lazyboy]

On 1/29/2023 at 6:02 PM, trademarkcomics said:

I'm trying not to, I promise I am. I've tried to ignore him but he attacks every one of my posts.

Attacks? If you don't want people to respond to your posts, the only solution is to not post. Questioning or disagreeing with your choice of words that you put out for public consumption is not an attack.

Now, of you're looking for attacks, try

On 1/29/2023 at 5:15 PM, trademarkcomics said:

It's downright shocking you don't along with anyone.

or

On 1/29/2023 at 5:57 PM, trademarkcomics said:

*Other than he's just looking to make trouble...again.

for example.

On 1/29/2023 at 6:02 PM, trademarkcomics said:

I'm not here just to debate.

So why are you here? Why start this thread? What were you hoping to achieve?

On 1/29/2023 at 6:02 PM, trademarkcomics said:

I like differing opinions

No, you clearly don't.

[Lazyboy]

On 1/29/2023 at 5:53 PM, Kripsys99 said:

Your brilliant insights are invaluable to this thread and forum. I can't imagine what we would do without you. Keep up the great work!

[Kripsys99]

On 1/29/2023 at 8:46 PM, Lazyboy said:

Your brilliant insights are invaluable to this thread and forum. I can't imagine what we would do without you. Keep up the great work!

[trademarkcomics]

And my final word on this...

But seriously, I'm choosing to concentrate on getting the thread back on track. So I'm not responding to anything personal from anyone from now on. 

[Ken Aldred]

I'm actually very bad at visualising the appearance of characters and environments purely from the descriptions given in novels or radio broadcasts.  That's one reason why I've always liked comics, to have talented artists with much, much better spatial and visual ability do the hard work for me.  

That said, I'm much better with the personality characterisation, plot and dialogue, so I like the story and art to work together, be synergistic.

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by Ken Aldred