Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1963) Butting Heads, Unexpected Success and Not Expected Failures! 3 3

[Dr. Haydn]

On 4/2/2023 at 8:00 AM, Zonker said:

If we are to believe Roy Thomas, he recalls Conan almost being cancelled early on in the Barry Smith run.  Then it started to pick up oddly enough around the time of the Gil Kane fill-in issues.  Certainly by the time Buscema took over it must have been a sales juggernaut, not only for the reasons you mention, but also for how it prompted so many DC attempts to cash in on a me-too approach:

- Sword of Sorcery 
- Claw the Unconquered
- Stalker
- Kong the Untamed
- Beowulf 

- Mike Grell's Warlord, which only survived the DC Implosion because publisher Jennette Kahn personally supported it.

They were chasing something, that's for sure.

As I recall, Conan alternated between bimonthly and monthly during Smith's run. That probably gives a good indication of fair-to-middling sales at first, though it could also have been necessary because of the logistics of Smith working from England and mailing his work across the Atlantic for Thomas to dialogue. (One issue got lost in the mail, resulting in an emergency reprint.)

[shadroch]

In an early FF letter column, a reader asks how Sue Storm could do something, and Stan offers a $5 bounty for whoever came up with the best explanation. 

Does anyone know if this was followed through?

[BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES]

On 4/1/2023 at 7:35 PM, Prince Namor said:

John Romita - from Comic Book Artist #6  Fall 1999

 

CBA: Did you actually co-plot on the Spider-Man books going into the ’70s? There seems to be characters like the Kingpin and Black Widow who have a very strong Romita stamp.
John: The only thing he used to do from 1966-72 was come in and leave a note on my drawing table saying “Next month, the Rhino.” That’s all; he wouldn’t tell me anything; how to handle it. Then he would say “The Kingpin.” I would then take it upon myself to put some kind of distinctive look to the guy. For instance, if it’s the kingpin of crime, I don’t want him to look like another guy in a suit who in silhouette looks like every other criminal. So I made him a 400-pound monster; that was my idea. I made him bald, I put the stickpin on him, I gave him that kind of tycoon look. (I later saw in a DC story from the 1950s a splash page where there was some tycoon who was wearing the exact outfit that was on the Kingpin. [laughter] If it was in my mind, I never remembered seeing that.)

Romita's a great guy.  If you read other interviews with him, you will find him describing lengthy sessions with Lee breaking story (which mitigates the narrative that Lee did nothing)   And if you read interviews with Lee you'll find quotes from him saying Romita would often plot stories on his own (which reinforces that Romita did a lot of plotting but mitigates the narrative that Lee never gave him credit). 

When you collaborate with people over a long period of time on many stories you find that ideas generally flow around the room and back and forth between those involved.  And you will find that even the generally generous people tend to remember and highlight their input more than that of others. 

If you haven't experienced that, you'll read quotes from people talking as they remember those sessions and you will remember and value only the statements that reinforce your pre-formed conclusions about who did what and why.   Especially if you're willing to embrace contradictions from the people you want to believe and disregard inconsistences, for the same reason.  

 

Edited April 2, 2023 by BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES

[Zonker]

On 4/2/2023 at 6:11 AM, Prince Namor said:

 

Buscema working with Stan created perhaps one of the biggest disappointments of the Silver Age for Marvel in the Silver Surfer's first solo title. Stan's pet project, plucked straight from Kirby - was such a sales disaster that even in 1970, when he had the full power to green light whatever he wanted - he had to cancel it. 

The art of course was beautiful - John Buscema was a machine** - but he wasn't a writer. And Stan's ideas in the hands of those who a) couldn't make something interesting out of it or b) couldn't ignore it and do something better, exposes his Marvel Method for what it really is. The series is bland and filled with overwrought dialogue that contradicts the art (and many times logic) and just goes on and on. 

 

And yet... comics fandom of the day evidently loved Stan's Silver Surfer!

Which suggests a couple of possibilities:

1) Playing to organized fandom didn't translate into as much mass sales appeal as Stan might have wished... OR...
2) There is merit to the Bob Beerbohm / Neal Adams theory that affidavit fraud and books systematically falling off the truck on the way to the newsstand doomed fan-favorite titles (Silver Surfer, Deadman, The Old X-Men, Green Lantern / Green Arrow, Kirby's Fourth World, possibly the first couple of years of Conan) to artificially low official sales.

ALLEY AWARDS

[Prince Namor]

On 4/2/2023 at 6:38 PM, Zonker said:

And yet... comics fandom of the day evidently loved Stan's Silver Surfer!

Which suggests a couple of possibilities:

1) Playing to organized fandom didn't translate into as much mass sales appeal as Stan might have wished... OR...
2) There is merit to the Bob Beerbohm / Neal Adams theory that affidavit fraud and books systematically falling off the truck on the way to the newsstand doomed fan-favorite titles (Silver Surfer, Deadman, The Old X-Men, Green Lantern / Green Arrow, Kirby's Fourth World, possibly the first couple of years of Conan) to artificially low official sales.

ALLEY AWARDS

Probably both. Though reading those stories I can see where the title would begin to bore people over time. 

[Dr. Haydn]

On 4/2/2023 at 11:45 PM, Prince Namor said:

Probably both. Though reading those stories I can see where the title would begin to bore people over time. 

For what it's worth, Silver Surfer was probably the best work Stan was capable of without Jack and Steve (Honorable Mention to the Stone Tablet Saga in Spider-man). I think #4 and #5 still hold up pretty well--and the apocalyptic #6 is underrated. Looking forward to discussing this further when we get to 1968 and 1969!

[Prince Namor]

A couple of things to take into consideration...

Anyone who gets residual money from reprints has to sign a Marvel contract. Romita no different. And in that contact it states that you can not dispute Lee's legacy. 

So when Romita let's slip "The only thing he used to do", that's pre-2000... Marvel made sure these guys never slipped again. They wanted the history told the way they wanted it told. And the contract ensured that. 

As well: When you hear about Stan saying, "He used to give ideas as much as I did", that's primarily pre-2000 as well. For the last 20 years of his life, Stan's stance was (and he gave it under oath in a court of law even), that he created it ALL and simply assigned an artist to the work that he felt best suited it. 

That's Marvel controlling the story from both ends.

[Zonker]

On 4/2/2023 at 3:30 PM, shadroch said:

In an early FF letter column, a reader asks how Sue Storm could do something, and Stan offers a $5 bounty for whoever came up with the best explanation. 

Does anyone know if this was followed through?

This was printed in FF #6 (pic taken from my Omnibus)

[shadroch]

A true man of the people. 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1963

Fantastic Four Annual #1 - Written by Stan Lee (meaning dialogued. Lee didn't actually write it), Drawn by Jack Kirby (who did more than just draw it, most likely at the very least, co-plotted it), Inking by Dick Ayers and Lettering by Art Simek

The Longest Uninterrupted Super-Epic of its kind ever published!

I don't know if that's true or not, but 37 pages of NEW material to kick off an 'Annual' seems to be pretty unheard of at this point...

The Annuals would remain a big deal at Marvel - a REALLY big deal, as every year they seemed to have a big, new, bold, exciting story - but it only remained that way as long as Kirby was around - once he left... the Annuals strangely dried up in story ideas and became reprints for Marvel as well - (late 1969 to 1973) FF Annuals #7-10, and then discontinued until 1976 when Houseroy brought them back with new stories. 

Part ONE:

Edited April 4, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1963

Fantastic Four Annual #1 - 

Part TWO:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1963

Fantastic Four Annual #1 - 

Part THREE:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1963

Fantastic Four Annual #1 - 

Part FOUR:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1963

Fantastic Four Annual #1 - 

Part FIVE:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1963

Fantastic Four Annual #1 - The first batch of Rogue's Gallery Pin-ups!

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1963

Fantastic Four Annual #1 - Bonus Pages!

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1963

Fantastic Four Annual #1 - The 2nd batch of Rogue's Gallery Pin-ups!

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1963

Fantastic Four Annual #1 - A retelling of their first encounter!

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1963

Fantastic Four Annual #1 - The 3rd and final batch of Rogue's Gallery Pin-ups!

Now THAT is how you do an Annual!

[Dr. Haydn]

On 4/3/2023 at 9:13 PM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1963

Fantastic Four Annual #1 - The 3rd and final batch of Rogue's Gallery Pin-ups!

Now THAT is how you do an Annual!

This annual set the tone and format for all of Marvel's annuals for the next few years. I can see why they were such important events!