Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1963) Butting Heads, Unexpected Success and Not Expected Failures! 3 3

[Steven Valdez]

Stan Lee: "Steve Ditko is gonna draw him. Sort of a black magic theme. The first story is nothing great, but perhaps we can make something of him—’twas Steve’s idea, and I figgered we’d give it a chance, although again, we had to rush the first one too much."

The wording of this is ambiguous. Stan might just have been saying that the first story was Steve's idea, not that Steve came up with Doc Strange per se.

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Edited April 9, 2023 by Steven Valdez

[Steven Valdez]

On 3/14/2023 at 12:33 AM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS MAY 1963

Journey Into Mystery #94 - Plot: Stan Lee Script: R. Berns (Robert Bernstein) Art: J. Sinnott Lettering: S. Rosen

Stan's first name is the only one actually spelled out...

Cover by Jack Kirby with Dick Ayers inks - 'The Marvel Age of Comics' is used on the cover, one of its earliest appearances.

This story is SO goofy...

Anyone else notice how Sinnott tended to draw his characters leaning towards the right almost all the time in these early Thor stories? Not good practice at all.

[Steven Valdez]

On 3/16/2023 at 12:40 AM, Dr. Haydn said:

Pretty scratchy art—almost looks like it was reproduced from Heck’s pencils!

Awful stuff... I bought that issue years ago on the strength of Kirby's cover but was so revolted by the interior art I sold it off, cheap.

[Steven Valdez]

On 3/16/2023 at 3:25 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

There were a few stinkers early on, weren't there? 

I think Marvel's momentum really picked up later in 1963 when Jack Kirby took on a more active role again (with Avengers and X-Men, and his return to Thor). Also, Stan Lee seemed to take the superhero line more seriously than before, perhaps realizing that this was the future of the comics field, and he ought to get on board. His dialogue had its flaws, of course (sexism and an overreliance on humor come to mind), but it strikes me as more readable than any of the others we have seen in recent months: Larry Lieber, Robert Bernstein, Ernie Hart. (Jerry Siegel's brief tryout in 1963 didn't work out too well either.)

Bob Powell was another early hack, who Stan had penciling Giant Man. It's a shame Don Heck was kept on for the Avengers for so long. I'm still not interested in collecting that run.

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1963

Fantastic Four #19 - Written by: Stan Lee (More like: Added dialogue to Kirby's story) Drawn by: Jack Kirby (More like: Written, Drawn and Conceived by) Inking: Dick Ayers Lettering: S. Rosen (My name is SAM!)

Cover by Jack Kirby with Paul Reinman inks. 

I guess that just decided to leave Pharaoh misspelled in the reprint...

Part ONE:

Edited April 9, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Steven Valdez]

On 3/24/2023 at 2:33 PM, PopKulture said:

As a longtime fan of silver age DC, I still on occasion chance across the sentiment from Marvel zombies that the artwork in the DC mags was vastly inferior to their Marvel counterparts. To wit, I give unto them this issue, along with others by Heck, Tuska, Leiber, etc. If you're talking about the Fantastic Four issue numbers in the 50's or 60's, that Kirby/Sinnott art represents a very high bar. A lot of the other Marvel art, especially the early silver stuff, falls more than a little short of Swan, Heath, Kane, Anderson, Infantino, etc. The above story doesn't compare all that favorably against Gold Key or even some Charlton, IMHO. 

MR. Ayers ruined a ton of early Marvel era Kirby. Looked like he was using a stick dipped in tar for his inks.

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1963

Fantastic Four #19 - Part TWO:

[Steven Valdez]

On 4/9/2023 at 5:57 PM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1963

Fantastic Four #19 - Written by: Stan Lee (More like: Added dialogue to Kirby's story) Drawn by: Jack Kirby (More like: Written, Drawn and Conceived by) Inking: Dick Ayers Lettering: S. Rosen (My name is SAM!)

Cover by Jack Kirby with Paul Reinman inks. 

I guess that just decided to leave Pharaoh misspelled in the reprint...

Part ONE:

What a shame Reinman didn't ink the interiors during this period too. His work on the covers is vastly superior to Ayers' tar-dipped tree-branch efforts inside.

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1963

Fantastic Four #19 - Part THREE:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1963

Fantastic Four #19 - Ad for X-Men #1 - finally with a picture of the team (I hope so, the book comes out this same week!).

[Steven Valdez]

On 4/2/2023 at 12:35 PM, Prince Namor said:

John Romita - from Comic Book Artist #6  Fall 1999

 

CBA: Did you actually co-plot on the Spider-Man books going into the ’70s? There seems to be characters like the Kingpin and Black Widow who have a very strong Romita stamp.
John: The only thing he used to do from 1966-72 was come in and leave a note on my drawing table saying “Next month, the Rhino.” That’s all; he wouldn’t tell me anything; how to handle it. Then he would say “The Kingpin.” I would then take it upon myself to put some kind of distinctive look to the guy. For instance, if it’s the kingpin of crime, I don’t want him to look like another guy in a suit who in silhouette looks like every other criminal. So I made him a 400-pound monster; that was my idea. I made him bald, I put the stickpin on him, I gave him that kind of tycoon look. (I later saw in a DC story from the 1950s a splash page where there was some tycoon who was wearing the exact outfit that was on the Kingpin. [laughter] If it was in my mind, I never remembered seeing that.)

'Stan would tell me who he would like to be the villain. Generally we would select the setting; sometimes we wouldn't even have time to select the settings, like "it takes place on a subway." He would give me that, and tell me where he wanted it to end. I would have to fill in all the blanks.'
I used to say, "I do the work, and Stan cashes the checks." John Romita Sr.
Comic Book Artist #6, 1999.

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1963

Fantastic Four #19 - Letters Page

A letter from Steve Gerber - a reply to a letter where Stan pretends to 'write' Sgt. Fury - and...

“A number of you have asked for more of Dr. Strange, in Strange Tales. So, we’ll have another of his off-beat tales in Strange Tales #114... We almost hope you DON’T like him, because BOY—are those stories hard to write!!!”

That's not someone promoting the book, the way he normally would. This is the beginning of Stan and Steve's work troubles as Stan's not interested in Steve's creation. And though Stan will force some of his own ideas on the character in the next few Doctor Strange stories, Ditko's will prevails and he takes over the strip long before he takes over Spider-man. 

[Steven Valdez]

On 4/2/2023 at 11:00 PM, Zonker said:

If we are to believe Roy Thomas, he recalls Conan almost being cancelled early on in the Barry Smith run.  Then it started to pick up oddly enough around the time of the Gil Kane fill-in issues.  Certainly by the time Buscema took over it must have been a sales juggernaut, not only for the reasons you mention, but also for how it prompted so many DC attempts to cash in on a me-too approach:

- Sword of Sorcery 
- Claw the Unconquered
- Stalker
- Kong the Untamed
- Beowulf 

- Mike Grell's Warlord, which only survived the DC Implosion because publisher Jennette Kahn personally supported it.

They were chasing something, that's for sure.

Neal Adams was quoted as saying 'As soon as Barry Smith did a book, or Steranko did a book, or one of my books, everybody would go to their local distributor and buy boxes of those books.' This is why a lot of great titles like X-Men, GL/GA, Nick Fury, Silver Surfer were 'inexplicably' cancelled - -because it appeared to the publishers that they weren't selling, when in fact they were selling by the boxload but under the counter. Only a fraction of them actually hit the stands and were recorded as legitimate sales.
One dealer even bought 25,000 copies of Conan #1, as well as having a monopoly on other early issues. Conan was not cancelled, obviously, but it came close. The print run for it must have been high enough to weather the underground sales.
Jim Shooter has also discussed this on his blog. The whole situation was made possible by the highly corrupt system of 'affidavit returns' -- which is where distributors only needed to report how many comics they had placed on newsstands, without having to return 'unsold' copies which were supposedly pulped or trashed, but were already privately sold instead.
This has been largely hushed up, because it was illegal and unethical and many of the millionaire dealers (who are still around today) got their start this way. It's also one reason why there are still so many high-grade unread copies of books from the '60s available even today. (Another reason is more recent warehouse finds, such as Steve Geppi's Harvey Comics bonanza of the mid-80s and the Mile High II collection of 1.5 million ILLEGALLY uncirculated silver/bronze books.)
As for the Overstreet Price Guide, I've also read about how the early editions were manipulated in many ways; Chuck Rozanski recounts, for example, how two big dealers would sell golden age books to each other for (then) outrageous amounts (which cancelled each others' payment out) and then report the sales to Overstreet as being legit. The early price guides were driven by plenty of vested interest from pioneering comics dealers, and today's guide prices are a legacy of that.

 

[Steven Valdez]

On 4/9/2023 at 5:20 AM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1963

Sgt. Fury #3 - Written by: Stan Lee (More like: Added dialogue to Kirby's story) Drawn By: Jack Kirby (More like: Written, Drawn and Conceived by) Inking: Dick Ayers Lettering: S. Rosen (His name is Sam!)

Cover by Jack Kirby with no one sure who actually did the inks... here's what GCD has to say about it:

Conflicting credits; Steve Ditko per (Bob Bailey, 2005-03-19 & Nick Caputo 2006-08-31); Jack Kirby (Nick Caputo, 2005-01-05) (Per Sandell ed.) // Inker comment by Bob Bailey: While he was not well known for doing war comics Ditko did do a few. If you compare the inking on the cover to Sgt Fury #14 which was inked by Ditko over Ayers (or any of his other Kirby-Ditko collaborations i.e FF 14 cover, FF 13 interior) you get the same effect in the muscles, clothing, sand, water and Dum-Dum's hand. Also Nick Fury's rounded shoulder and facial wrinkles are definite Ditko. 

Per Caputo: I've read Bob Bailey's comments about Ditko being the inker for this cover,and I have to admit that I suspected him as well, although I'm not entirely convinced. There were times that Ditko basically went over Kirby's lines instead of embellishing them, as he usually did (A Giant-Man story and Strange Tales Annual 2 are two instances), so its possible the sparse line I see in Kirby's inking may be Ditko following the lines.

Chris Boyko: Steve Ditko (in litt., 18 Oct. 2014) states he did not do the inks on this cover and also does not think it to be the work of MR. Ayers.
 

Part ONE:

Incredible layout on that cover, one of Jack's best ever... irrespective of who inked it -- although it'd be great to know.

Edited April 9, 2023 by Steven Valdez

[Dr. Haydn]

On 4/9/2023 at 12:18 AM, Steven Valdez said:

Bob Powell was another early hack, who Stan had penciling Giant Man. It's a shame Don Heck was kept on for the Avengers for so long. I'm still not interested in collecting that run.

Heck was much better on Avengers when he had solid inking. Frank Giacoia made his pencils look good; also, Romita inked him once, in his return to Marvel in 1965.

[Dr. Haydn]

On 4/8/2023 at 11:55 PM, Steven Valdez said:

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Stan Lee: "Steve Ditko is gonna draw him. Sort of a black magic theme. The first story is nothing great, but perhaps we can make something of him—’twas Steve’s idea, and I figgered we’d give it a chance, although again, we had to rush the first one too much."

The wording of this is ambiguous. Stan might just have been saying that the first story was Steve's idea, not that Steve came up with Doc Strange per se.

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Or maybe Dr. Strange was a reworking of Dr. Droom, which Steve inked, over Jack's pencils?

Edited April 9, 2023 by Dr. Haydn
Added Dr. Strange

[Dr. Haydn]

On 4/9/2023 at 3:24 AM, Steven Valdez said:

Neal Adams was quoted as saying 'As soon as Barry Smith did a book, or Steranko did a book, or one of my books, everybody would go to their local distributor and buy boxes of those books.' This is why a lot of great titles like X-Men, GL/GA, Nick Fury, Silver Surfer were 'inexplicably' cancelled - -because it appeared to the publishers that they weren't selling, when in fact they were selling by the boxload but under the counter. Only a fraction of them actually hit the stands and were recorded as legitimate sales.
One dealer even bought 25,000 copies of Conan #1, as well as having a monopoly on other early issues. Conan was not cancelled, obviously, but it came close. The print run for it must have been high enough to weather the underground sales.
Jim Shooter has also discussed this on his blog. The whole situation was made possible by the highly corrupt system of 'affidavit returns' -- which is where distributors only needed to report how many comics they had placed on newsstands, without having to return 'unsold' copies which were supposedly pulped or trashed, but were already privately sold instead.
This has been largely hushed up, because it was illegal and unethical and many of the millionaire dealers (who are still around today) got their start this way. It's also one reason why there are still so many high-grade unread copies of books from the '60s available even today. (Another reason is more recent warehouse finds, such as Steve Geppi's Harvey Comics bonanza of the mid-80s and the Mile High II collection of 1.5 million ILLEGALLY uncirculated silver/bronze books.)
As for the Overstreet Price Guide, I've also read about how the early editions were manipulated in many ways; Chuck Rozanski recounts, for example, how two big dealers would sell golden age books to each other for (then) outrageous amounts (which cancelled each others' payment out) and then report the sales to Overstreet as being legit. The early price guides were driven by plenty of vested interest from pioneering comics dealers, and today's guide prices are a legacy of that.

 

I do wonder if Nick Fury is in the same category as the other titles you mention. The title limped along for about a year after Steranko left. Marvel cut a few titles in late 1969 and early 1970, right after the price increase to 15 cents. Some of them were acclaimed (Silver Surfer, Dr. Strange) but the others were second-line titles like Captain Savage, Captain Marvel, And Tower of Shadows.

[Steven Valdez]

On 4/10/2023 at 12:55 AM, Dr. Haydn said:

I do wonder if Nick Fury is in the same category as the other titles you mention. The title limped along for about a year after Steranko left. Marvel cut a few titles in late 1969 and early 1970, right after the price increase to 15 cents. Some of them were acclaimed (Silver Surfer, Dr. Strange) but the others were second-line titles like Captain Savage, Captain Marvel, And Tower of Shadows.

I'm sure Steranko's Nick Fury was hoarded at the time. All of the books with great art were in huge demand by those under-the-counter dealers and fans alike. Captain Savage on the other hand had some of the worst art I've ever seen, so I doubt that was coveted by anyone. Captain Marvel with Colan art was run of the mill, although Tower of Shadows included some top artists.

[Steven Valdez]

On 4/10/2023 at 12:08 AM, Dr. Haydn said:

Heck was much better on Avengers when he had solid inking. Frank Giacoia made his pencils look good; also, Romita inked him once, in his return to Marvel in 1965.

Heck was better when inked by others, agreed. He was certainly competent when not rushed, and did good layouts, but he didn't have the creativity to do top superhero work.... especially when being directly compared to Kirby at all times.

[Zonker]

On 4/8/2023 at 4:02 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

Nice cameo by Reed Richards, picking up on the mention of his wartime service in FF #11. Had Stan or Jack already decided to bring Nick Fury into 1960s Marvel continuity?

 

I also wonder if it was Jack's idea or Stan's to have this guy be Richards.  Does the OO with margin notes exist?