Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1963) Butting Heads, Unexpected Success and Not Expected Failures! 3 3

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JUNE 1963

Millie the Model Annual #2 - Signed 'S. Lee & Stan G.', the opening story is a bit of a yawner. My god, 9 pages of these two dimwits misreading each other. Stan G still hadn't learned to ape Dan DeCarlo's style - we'd have to wait another 4 years for that...

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JUNE 1963

Millie the Model Annual #2 - Stuck between endless 1 page gags (18 of them), Stan & Stan put together a story I found interesting - because they put themselves in it...

[Dr. Haydn]

On 3/28/2023 at 10:46 PM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS JUNE 1963

Millie the Model Annual #2 - Stuck between endless 1 page gags (18 of them), Stan & Stan put together a story I found interesting - because they put themselves in it...

This one is genuinely funny!

Bottom of page 6: Stan G. sure looks like Mr. Hanover!

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JUNE 1963

Superman Annual #7 - Over at DC, they did three annuals for the summer - Batman Annual #5 in late May (23rd), Lois Lane Annual #2 on June 6th and Superman Annual #7 on June 13th. But all three would feature all reprint only material. 

Even though this wouldn't have any sort of immediately noticeable effect on DC's standing, in the long run it would help solidify Marvel's positioning as a 'House of (New) Ideas' and give them extra footing to muscle into the contention. 

Edited March 30, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JUNE 1963

Justice League #21 - DC DID have a stable of characters to use, past and present, and most likely due to demand they brought back the Justice Society! The reprint material in annuals might've annoyed some, but bringing back the JSA and having them meet the current JLA was an idea that comic fans gladly embraced!

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1963

For July, Marvel would release 15 titles to the newsstand, including two more annuals. That's 83 titles for 1963 so far, or 11.85 a month. 

9 superhero books - 1 Western - 1 War - 4 comedy/romance

 

Number of titles released to the Newsstand this month by each publisher:

Charlton - 29, DC - 28, Gold Key - 24, Marvel, Harvey - 15, Dell - 13, Archie - 11, ACG - 4

 

July 2nd, 1963

Avengers #1

Fantastic Four Annual #1

Journey Into Mystery #96

Modeling with Millie #25

Patsy and Hedy Annual #1

Patsy Walker #109

Sgt. Fury #3

Tales to Astonish #48

 

 

July 9th, 1963

Fantastic Four #19

Amazing Spider-man #5

Patsy & Hedy #90

Rawhide Kid #36

Strange Tales #113

Tales of Suspense #46

X-Men #1

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1963

Avengers #1 - Written by Stan Lee (hardly) Drawn by Jack Kirby (as well as so much more) Inking: MR. Ayers Lettering: S. Rosen (His name is Sam!)

Part ONE:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1963

Avengers #1 - 

Part TWO:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1963

Avengers #1 - Stan's dialogue for female superheroes was different than the dialogue he wrote for the men. 

Edited March 31, 2023 by Prince Namor

[BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES]

skimming through this to read the comic scans (thanks for posting, btw!) I see many references to the "Marvel method" which misunderstand the process.  Sometimes an artist was sent off off with little more than a basic idea, but other times the conversation about the story was very detailed.  There's a prevalent presumption (in this thread, anyway) that there was no dialogue or detailed descriptions of the action pitched in those story sessions and that the dialogue was uniformly done by the artist in a first rough first draft in the margins of the art, and then simply reformatted into -script form by Stan Lee with few (or even no) revisions. 

But many people who worked with Stan in those sort of sessions can tell you that Stan Lee loved to describe action and you couldn't stop him from pitching dialogue if you wanted to.  The artists routinely worked much of that dialogue and action into the storyboards, and then Lee added the finished dialogue and captions (and fairly often sent pages back to be redone)   

Yes, it got the point on some titles (Kirby with FF and Ditko with ASM) where the artists did much more.  And the first person ever to say so was Lee, himself.  

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1963

Journey Into Mystery #96 - Story Plot: Stan Lee  Script: R. Berns  Art: Joe Sinnott  Lettering: Art Simek

Ugh.

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1963

Journey Into Mystery #96 - Story Plot: Stan Lee  Script & Art: Larry Lieber  Lettering: Art Simek

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1963

Journey Into Mystery #96 - Written By: Stan Lee  Drawn by: Steve Ditko  Lettering: Art Simek

[Mmehdy]

What a month...FF Ann #1....still today one of the greatest superhero books ever created, I mean the whole 72 pages were great...what a deal...best 25cents I ever spent.

[Dr. Haydn]

On 3/31/2023 at 5:40 PM, BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES said:

skimming through this to read the comic scans (thanks for posting, btw!) I see many references to the "Marvel method" which misunderstand the process.  Sometimes an artist was sent off off with little more than a basic idea, but other times the conversation about the story was very detailed.  There's a prevalent presumption (in this thread, anyway) that there was no dialogue or detailed descriptions of the action pitched in those story sessions and that the dialogue was uniformly done by the artist in a first rough first draft in the margins of the art, and then simply reformatted into --script form by Stan Lee with few (or even no) revisions. 

But many people who worked with Stan in those sort of sessions can tell you that Stan Lee loved to describe action and you couldn't stop him from pitching dialogue if you wanted to.  The artists routinely worked much of that dialogue and action into the storyboards, and then Lee added the finished dialogue and captions (and fairly often sent pages back to be redone)   

Yes, it got the point on some titles (Kirby with FF and Ditko with ASM) where the artists did much more.  And the first person ever to say so was Lee, himself.  

I would think that Kirby didn't need much (if any) input, after 20-plus years in the field. Ditko didn't seem to need much either. Colan, Romita, Buscema etc. probably needed more direction, at least at first.

[Prince Namor]

On 4/1/2023 at 7:11 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

I would think that Kirby didn't need much (if any) input, after 20-plus years in the field. Ditko didn't seem to need much either. Colan, Romita, Buscema etc. probably needed more direction, at least at first.

John Romita - from Comic Book Artist #6  Fall 1999

 

CBA: Did you actually co-plot on the Spider-Man books going into the ’70s? There seems to be characters like the Kingpin and Black Widow who have a very strong Romita stamp.
John: The only thing he used to do from 1966-72 was come in and leave a note on my drawing table saying “Next month, the Rhino.” That’s all; he wouldn’t tell me anything; how to handle it. Then he would say “The Kingpin.” I would then take it upon myself to put some kind of distinctive look to the guy. For instance, if it’s the kingpin of crime, I don’t want him to look like another guy in a suit who in silhouette looks like every other criminal. So I made him a 400-pound monster; that was my idea. I made him bald, I put the stickpin on him, I gave him that kind of tycoon look. (I later saw in a DC story from the 1950s a splash page where there was some tycoon who was wearing the exact outfit that was on the Kingpin. [laughter] If it was in my mind, I never remembered seeing that.)

[thehumantorch]

On 4/1/2023 at 4:02 PM, Mmehdy said:

What a month...FF Ann #1....still today one of the greatest superhero books ever created, I mean the whole 72 pages were great...what a deal...best 25cents I ever spent.

If I could go back in time I'd blow a full dollar on four copies

[Dr. Haydn]

On 4/1/2023 at 9:35 PM, Prince Namor said:

John Romita - from Comic Book Artist #6  Fall 1999

 

CBA: Did you actually co-plot on the Spider-Man books going into the ’70s? There seems to be characters like the Kingpin and Black Widow who have a very strong Romita stamp.
John: The only thing he used to do from 1966-72 was come in and leave a note on my drawing table saying “Next month, the Rhino.” That’s all; he wouldn’t tell me anything; how to handle it. Then he would say “The Kingpin.” I would then take it upon myself to put some kind of distinctive look to the guy. For instance, if it’s the kingpin of crime, I don’t want him to look like another guy in a suit who in silhouette looks like every other criminal. So I made him a 400-pound monster; that was my idea. I made him bald, I put the stickpin on him, I gave him that kind of tycoon look. (I later saw in a DC story from the 1950s a splash page where there was some tycoon who was wearing the exact outfit that was on the Kingpin. [laughter] If it was in my mind, I never remembered seeing that.)

Yeah, I suppose it was unfair to lump Romita in with the others. JR Sr. picked it up pretty quickly. A couple of issues over Kirby layouts, then he was left to work it out on his own (though he was never a universe builder like Kirby).

[Prince Namor]

On 4/2/2023 at 12:21 AM, Dr. Haydn said:

Yeah, I suppose it was unfair to lump Romita in with the others. JR Sr. picked it up pretty quickly. A couple of issues over Kirby layouts, then he was left to work it out on his own (though he was never a universe builder like Kirby).

Well he's just an example that spoke openly about it, but then mysteriously pulled back. And yeah, he got a little more direction when he first started on Daredevil... but it's very interesting to hear him be so specific about afterwards, as if he had some resentment. "The only thing he used to do from 1966-72" and "That’s all; he wouldn’t tell me anything; how to handle it" really says a lot in very few words. 

Of course we always hear about Kirby's layouts, but not enough is made about Romita's storytelling templates that Marvel used on nearly every title*. While Roy Thomas did a lot of Stan's work during this period (and we know because he's lamented enough about it here and there over the years), Romita has mostly been quiet about his role in it - the MOST important role - that of the actual storyteller. 

Romita was very good at it. Some of the others Lee worked with... not so much.

Romita wasn't the creative dynamo that Kirby or Ditko were, and it shows, but he also didn't complain and want due credit or due pay either and that made him the idea guy to work for Stan. Romita did comics the way Stan wanted them done - Stan could give him practically nothing, and Romita would produce. 

The problem was, there was only one John Romita. 

Stan Lee working with Gene Colan on Daredevil wasn't as celebrated - most all of those stories waited 35-40 years before they were ever reprinted (in the mid to late 90's in the Black & White Marvel Essentials series)... because as talented as Colan's art was, his storytelling - and it was the artists who wrote the stories, not Stan - just wasn't as good. 

John Buscema, working with someone who could actually give at least a typed outline for a story (Roy Thomas) could produce an outstanding body of work over a long period of time. Buscema working with Stan created perhaps one of the biggest disappointments of the Silver Age for Marvel in the Silver Surfer's first solo title. Stan's pet project, plucked straight from Kirby - was such a sales disaster that even in 1970, when he had the full power to green light whatever he wanted - he had to cancel it. 

The art of course was beautiful - John Buscema was a machine** - but he wasn't a writer. And Stan's ideas in the hands of those who a) couldn't make something interesting out of it or b) couldn't ignore it and do something better, exposes his Marvel Method for what it really is. The series is bland and filled with overwrought dialogue that contradicts the art (and many times logic) and just goes on and on. 

It's why Stan limited his alliances... the wrong one's expose him. 

 

*One of Romita's Spidey templates: Hero laments his loves and life (pseudo recap) - trouble breaks out/foreshadow of villain (plan) - supporting character scene and/or unresolved romance storyline - full villain reveal/plan - main action - either resolution or 'shocking' ending for continued story.

**I wish I could see sales numbers for Conan the Barbarian.... it's amazing how much more they used that character than - Lee's Daredevil. Conan got 5 Giant Size issues (4 with all new stories) compared to one from Daredevil (with all reprint material)... Out of 28 Marvel Treasury Editions, Conan got 4 FULL issues devoted to him - Daredevil is a small figure on one cover (Iron Man, the same, only one small figure on one of the covers) - PLUS Conan had his own black and white magazine that ran for 235 issues! Daredevil and Iron Man seemed to just exist to give Marvel another book to glut the newsstand with - it wasn't until the 80's that they actually got a creative team on them to round out the characters and give them some depth. 

[Zonker]

On 4/2/2023 at 6:11 AM, Prince Namor said:

 

**I wish I could see sales numbers for Conan the Barbarian.... it's amazing how much more they used that character 

If we are to believe Roy Thomas, he recalls Conan almost being cancelled early on in the Barry Smith run.  Then it started to pick up oddly enough around the time of the Gil Kane fill-in issues.  Certainly by the time Buscema took over it must have been a sales juggernaut, not only for the reasons you mention, but also for how it prompted so many DC attempts to cash in on a me-too approach:

- Sword of Sorcery 
- Claw the Unconquered
- Stalker
- Kong the Untamed
- Beowulf 

- Mike Grell's Warlord, which only survived the DC Implosion because publisher Jennette Kahn personally supported it.

They were chasing something, that's for sure.