Top 5 M-SHE-U Failures 4 4

[sfcityduck]

On 4/13/2023 at 7:44 AM, october said:

Companies don't aim for gross. They aim for net. Marvel movies are horribly expensive to make and market, so much so that anything less than half a billion WW box office is a flop. Disney+ loses roughly a billion dollars each quarter. That's billion with a "b" and quartet with a "q". It's not sustainable. Yes, the shows and movies are popular, but that ignores the other half of the question/equation. Are they as popular as they need to be to justify their expense? The answer is shifting closer to "no".

How much did Disney lose on each of their Marvel movies?

This conversation is not about theme parks, espn, abc, Star Wars, etc.  But even so Disney is weathering the pandemic well.  The film industry is entering a rebound. So compare Marvel’s net to other top grossing movies of 2022.  Did any lose money? How did they compare? These vague general assertions aren’t moving the needle because you no facts to support your conclusion.

[theCapraAegagrus]

Quantumania = facts.

[Kripsys99]

[drotto]

On 4/13/2023 at 10:43 AM, sfcityduck said:

I hate to break this to you, but the templates have always been painfully obvious.  These are comic book movies.  They follow well defined formulas that have around longer than most of us have been alive. There  have always been templates. All that has changed is that females are no longer limited to the damsel in distress template and men aren’t always slotted into the near perfect hero who always comes through template.  That is an improvement because now we get to see something other than the same old template and in shows like Loki and WandaVision we see the envelope being pushed in exciting and innovative ways instead of yet another retread of an old story.

The females in distress has never been a mainstay of the MCU (we are not talking about comics here).  The heroes journey is the primary template that has been used in Phase 1 to Phase 3. It is what comics have historically been based on, and it is a templet that is still popular, and can be told in countless and interesting ways. Audiences love and still love those stories.  They work when well written even if the basic templet is repetitive. When you switch to the narrative that the power has always been within you, all you need to do is believe in yourself. When you move away from characters with clear flaws, that need to evolve and become a better person, a selfless person, you are abandoning that templet. Without that you essentially destroy the foundation of superhero comic's. That templet is also gender blind, but they have shown a reluctance to apply that templet to female characters. So they are abandoning the very essence of hero comics, the very reason why people love these stories. That is why they are leaving.

[october]

On 4/13/2023 at 9:50 AM, sfcityduck said:

How much did Disney lose on each of their Marvel movies?

This conversation is not about theme parks, espn, abc, Star Wars, etc.  But even so Disney is weathering the pandemic well.  The film industry is entering a rebound. So compare Marvel’s net to other top grossing movies of 2022.  Did any lose money? How did they compare? These vague general assertions aren’t moving the needle because you no facts to support your conclusion.

Have you ever read the threads/articles that try to estimate profit/loss on films? Do yourself a favor and don't. 

Marketing numbers aren't provided, but estimates on production plus marketing on movies like Eternals, Ant Man 3, Black Widow and others indicate that box office did not move them into the black. Most cost 250-300M to make and market. Box office has to be 500-600 to make money because of revenue sharing/split.

[sfcityduck]

On 4/13/2023 at 7:45 AM, drotto said:

But you do not need to tell female stories at the expense of the male characters.  …,  Audiences are losing interest, not because they hate female characters, they are losing interest because they are being given the same repeated characters, in movies that have basically the same plot. Now, it is valid to say comics have always done this, and you would be correct. .,,,

Yes, they need to be telling better stories, that is all I have been saying. They can also be telling better stories, without needing to diminish the male characters in the process.

You are contradicting yourself.

 You want new templates but complain about “diminishing male characters” or more accurately diminishing the old template.

You admit audiences are fine with female centered movies, but then say we should not have female centered movies at the “expense of male characters” (or as you say elsewhere on this thread you want more male centered movies and less female centered movies).

Which is it?  Your positions are not coherent.  You pay lip service to well-written female characters but apparently you cannot conceive of well-written female characters without “(un)diminished male characters”.

 

 

[valiantman]

On 4/13/2023 at 9:44 AM, october said:

Disney+ loses roughly a billion dollars each quarter. That's billion with a "b" and quarter with a "q".

I've heard people say "billion with a 'b'" because they think people might have misheard or misread "million", but they mean billion with a "b".

How does someone mishear or misread "quarter" with anything but a "q"?

Muarter?  Buarter? 

"Kuato"?  

[sfcityduck]

On 4/13/2023 at 8:00 AM, october said:

Have you ever read the threads/articles that try to estimate profit/loss on films? Do yourself a favor and don't. 

Marketing numbers aren't provided, but estimates on production plus marketing on movies like Eternals, Ant Man 3, Black Widow and others indicate that box office did not move them into the black. Most cost 250-300M to make and market. Box office has to be 500-600 to make money because of revenue sharing/split.

So you have no statements they have lost money, just speculation (which ignores the licensing and other related revenue streams Disney makes off a movie). Get back to me when you can put some meat on the bone of your argument.  

[drotto]

On 4/13/2023 at 11:00 AM, october said:

Have you ever read the threads/articles that try to estimate profit/loss on films? Do yourself a favor and don't. 

Marketing numbers aren't provided, but estimates on production plus marketing on movies like Eternals, Ant Man 3, Black Widow and others indicate that box office did not move them into the black. Most cost 250-300M to make and market. Box office has to be 500-600 to make money because of revenue sharing/split.

To add to that....

 

Domestic theaters return around 55% to the studio

 

International is around 42%.

 

China is around 25%

[october]

On 4/13/2023 at 10:10 AM, sfcityduck said:

So you have no statements they have lost money, just speculation (which ignores the licensing and other related revenue streams Disney makes off a movie). Get back to me when you can put some meat on the bone of your argument.  

I'd tell you that studios don't release those numbers, ever, so all we have is speculation, but you know everything already so no need for me to say it.

[sfcityduck]

On 4/13/2023 at 7:58 AM, drotto said:

The females in distress has never been a mainstay of the MCU (we are not talking about comics here).  The heroes journey is the primary template that has been used in Phase 1 to Phase 3. It is what comics have historically been based on, and it is a templet that is still popular, and can be told in countless and interesting ways. Audiences love and still love those stories.  They work when well written even if the basic templet is repetitive. When you switch to the narrative that the power has always been within you, all you need to do is believe in yourself. When you move away from characters with clear flaws, that need to evolve and become a better person, a selfless person, you are abandoning that templet. Without that you essentially destroy the foundation of superhero comic's. That templet is also gender blind, but they have shown a reluctance to apply that templet to female characters. So they are abandoning the very essence of hero comics, the very reason why people love these stories. That is why they are leaving.

Very poetic. But unsupported by facts.  When you had four of the top ten grossing movies in 2022 people aren’t leaving.  Or if they are it is due to industry wide forces. I’d appreciate less speculative poetry and more acknowledgment of the facts and reality.

[Mr Sneeze]

I would say, if you don’t like any of these movies, then there are plenty of others to choose from. If you do like them, then carry on.

 

[sfcityduck]

On 4/13/2023 at 8:11 AM, october said:

I'd tell you that studios don't release those numbers, ever, so all we have is speculation, but you know everything already so no need for me to say it.

And I would point out that if Marvel viewed the movies as financially unviable they’d stop making them - which they are not.  Compared to all other studios Disney/Marvel hit it out of the park on top grossing films in 2022. Beating out many vfx heavy films.  I think we can safely say they are better situated than most everyone else.

[Mr Sneeze]

Usually we only see Kevin in these discussions but it‘s nice to see Bob pop in today. 

[sfcityduck]

On 4/13/2023 at 8:20 AM, Mr Sneeze said:

I would say, if you don’t like any of these movies, then there are plenty of others to choose from. If you do like them, then carry on.

 

Good point.  This has also gotten repetitive and increasingly vague. I’m done.

[october]

On 4/13/2023 at 10:21 AM, sfcityduck said:

And I would point out that if Marvel viewed the movies as financially unviable they’d stop making them - which they are not.  Compared to all other studios Disney/Marvel hit it out of the park on top grossing films in 2022. Beating out many vfx heavy films.  I think we can safely say they are better situated than most everyone else.

No, they would do things like fire top executives, delay or cancel projects, do reshoots, slash budgets and generally shake things up. I wonder when we will see that happen.

[drotto]

On 4/13/2023 at 11:14 AM, sfcityduck said:

Very poetic. But unsupported by facts.  When you had four of the top ten grossing movies in 2022 people aren’t leaving.  Or if they are it is due to industry wide forces. I’d appreciate less speculative poetry and more acknowledgment of the facts and reality.

Facts are people are leaving.  Yes the box offices on the surface still look OK, but simple facts.

 

The MCU has not had a billion dollar film in 5 years. Balck Panther 2 made about $500 million less then its predecessor.  QM is the lowest grossing of the franchise.   So based on those raw number, tickets sales are down.  Now adjust those numbers further, knowing that there has been inflation of ticket prices of about 30%.  That means you need to sell less tickets to bring in the same amount of money. So it is I disputable that the audience between inflation and lower box office, that fewer people are watching.

[sfcityduck]

On 4/13/2023 at 8:33 AM, drotto said:

Facts are people are leaving.  Yes the box offices on the surface still look OK, but simple facts.

 

The MCU has not had a billion dollar film in 5 years. Balck Panther 2 made about $500 million less then its predecessor.  QM is the lowest grossing of the franchise.   So based on those raw number, tickets sales are down.  Now adjust those numbers further, knowing that there has been inflation of ticket prices of about 30%.  That means you need to sell less tickets to bring in the same amount of money. So it is I disputable that the audience between inflation and lower box office, that fewer people are watching.

You are ignoring the “why” as to grosses and audience numbers being down.  Is it MCU specific or industry-wide?  It is industry-wide.  Which means your whole argument just fell apart.  Especially when MCU outperforms the industry.  Four of the top ten for 2022. Ant-man Wasp is the third highest grossing film of 2023.  Your comparison of past and present ignores the industry-wide forces in play now. It is apples to oranges. Entirely irrational.

[Kripsys99]

On 4/13/2023 at 11:29 AM, sfcityduck said:

Good point.  This has also gotten repetitive and increasingly vague. I’m done.

Rather than engage in dialectic, you proselytized in bad faith, failing to cede any of the reasonable counterpoints to your assertions, and flinging ad hominem attacks at individuals whose view points differed from your own. Then, when it became evident that a plurality of posters in this thread didn't agree with you, rather than show any sign of good faith engagement and self-reflection on areas of disagreement, you doubled down on your complete and utter intransigence, then took your ball and went home. All 'round good look.

All of that said, I'm done too! After all:

"The only fool bigger than the person who knows it all is the person who argues with him."

— Stanislaw Jerzy Lec

 

[drotto]

On 4/13/2023 at 11:44 AM, sfcityduck said:

You are ignoring the “why” as to grosses and audience numbers being down.  Is it MCU specific or industry-wide?  It is industry-wide.  Which means your whole argument just fell apart.  Especially when MCU outperforms the industry.  Four of the top ten for 2022. Ant-man Wasp is the third highest grossing film of 2023.  Your comparison of past and present ignores the industry-wide forces in play now. It is apples to oranges. Entirely irrational.

Top Gun

Avatar

Super Mario Brothers

Minions

Spider-Man (Sony film)

There are many films doing well, and better then the MCU.  If you want to bring returns based of known budget, you can also put John Wick, Creed 3, ans Puss'n Boots in there also. No the industry is not as strong as it was, but there are bright spots out there, and they are not Disney.