Top 5 M-SHE-U Failures 4 4

[Hulksdaddy1]

On 4/13/2023 at 4:06 PM, sfcityduck said:

This whole thread is about ideology.  Did you watch the video that started it?  

But I'm debating facts.  Not feelings.  Facts.  And there are no facts that movies centered on female characters are destroying the MCU for the simple reason that the facts are that Marvel movies were four of the top 10 highest grossing movies last year.  That's two more in the top 10 than any other property or studio. That fact alone destroys the case. So what we get are more and more fanciful opinions tossed around in an attempt to justify an ideological view put out by a crazy youtuber.  Meanwhile, the actual history and values of Marvel seem to have been forgotten.  

As for my ideology, I'm with Stan Lee. This is a better video than the one that starts this thread:

In it, Stan Lee states:

"Marvel has always been and always will be a reflection of the world right outside our window.  That world may change and evolve, but the one thing that will never change is the way we tell our stories of heroism. Those stories have room for everyone, regardless of their race, gender or color of their skin.  The only things we don’t have room for are hatred, intolerance and bigotry.”

I've seen the 75 other times you've tried to twist what others have said. Rings no more true the 76th time.

Edited April 13, 2023 by Hulksdaddy1

[JC25427N]

On 4/13/2023 at 4:06 PM, sfcityduck said:

This whole thread is about ideology.  Did you watch the video that started it?  

But I'm debating facts.  Not feelings.  Facts.  And there are no facts that movies centered on female characters are destroying the MCU for the simple reason that the facts are that Marvel movies were four of the top 10 highest grossing movies last year.  That's two more in the top 10 than any other property or studio. That fact alone destroys the case. So what we get are more and more fanciful opinions tossed around in an attempt to justify an ideological view put out by a crazy youtuber.  Meanwhile, the actual history and values of Marvel seem to have been forgotten.  

As for my ideology, I'm with Stan Lee. This is a better video than the one that starts this thread:

In it, Stan Lee states:

"Marvel has always been and always will be a reflection of the world right outside our window.  That world may change and evolve, but the one thing that will never change is the way we tell our stories of heroism. Those stories have room for everyone, regardless of their race, gender or color of their skin.  The only things we don’t have room for are hatred, intolerance and bigotry.”

You keep replying like you're arguing against someone who holds the belief that recent MCU movies are either good or bad solely based on the gender of the protagonist(s). 

Do you really think there are people in this thread who hold that position? 

And if so, do you think they're just flat out lying when they say their issue is with the writing?

[sfcityduck]

On 4/13/2023 at 1:24 PM, JC25427N said:

You keep replying like you're arguing against someone who holds the belief that recent MCU movies are either good or bad solely based on the gender of the protagonist(s). 

Do you really think there are people in this thread who hold that position? 

And if so, do you think they're just flat out lying when they say their issue is with the writing?

The answer to your first question is a clear "Yes." For example, drotto posted:

On 4/12/2023 at 1:31 PM, drotto said:

The MCU has gone from too male, to becoming too female.   I am not disputing there needed to be better balance, but they way overshot balance and went to outright female dominance. I am not talking overall balance in all MCU films, I am talking about the films coming out right now. Fans want balance, not one note, poorly written, predictable characters, and stories.

The answer to your second question is "Depends." The video that starts this thread is outright bigoted against gays, asians, women, etc. The fact that anyone would post that or endorse it is telling that politics are a big issue with those criticizing the MCU as being an M-SHE-U.  For some, its not writing at all.  It's just politics.  For others, maybe drotto is an example, they seem very conflicted. Drotto talks about bad writing, but only for the female centered movies. His solution is not better written female centered movies -- it is LESS female centered movies.  Make of that what you will.  I think he probably would become a convert to female centered movies if they were more like the Miles Morales movie (which truly was a well-written and entertaining film). But the MCU live action movies are stuck in a rut, whether male or female centered, and so they all come across a bit stale (not surprising given how many MCU movies we've had - I stopped being excited about Avengers movies at some point because they really started to suck). So he blames the female centering more than the writing. Again, I think he could be a convert to female centered movies, but right now he just wants less of them. Too bad he apparently has not seen Loki and WandaVision because they show us how entertaining new creative approaches can be. Drotto does not talk about those. 

Edited April 13, 2023 by sfcityduck

[JC25427N]

On 4/13/2023 at 4:38 PM, sfcityduck said:

The answer to your first question is a clear "Yes." For example, drotto posted:

The answer to your second question is "Depends." The video that starts this thread is outright bigoted against gays, asians, women, etc. The fact that anyone would post that or endorse it is telling that politics are a big issue with those criticizing the MCU as being an M-SHE-U.  For some, its not writing at all.  It's just politics.  For others, maybe drotto is an example, they seem very conflicted. Drotto talks about bad writing, but only for the female centered movies. His solution is not better written female centered movies -- it is LESS female centered movies.  Make of that what you will.  I think he probably would become a convert to female centered movies if they were more like the Miles Morales movie (which truly was a well-written and entertaining film). But the MCU live action movies are stuck in a rut, whether male or female centered, and so they all come across a bit stale (not surprising given how many MCU movies we've had - I stopped being excited about Avengers movies at some point because they really started to suck). So he blames the female centering more than the writing. Too bad he apparently seen Loki and WandaVision because they show us how entertaining new creative approaches can be. Drotto does not talk about those. 

That's fair, although I think maybe you just misunderstood Drotto's intentions. I think things get muddied up when discussing this because the time period when many perceive a dip in writing quality to have started is around the same point where the movies started to shift towards more female-centric stories. But I don't think most people believe there's a causal relationship between the two (meaning I don't think most people believe the movies and/or writing is bad just because its focusing on women). 

I also hate the term "M-SHE-U" I don't think it really summarizes the real issues with recent MCU and only serves to distract. 

I loved Loki, and I liked most of WandaVision (It's only the finale I didn't like that much, but I could live with it). I did heavily dislike Multiverse of Madness, think it could have been a great story that picked up a lot threads left in WandaVision but it just fumbled it. Wasn't surprised when I learned that apparently the --script had numerous total rewrites and the screenwriter said in interviews that multiple scenes were the result of him "not knowing what to do with the --script" 

Edited April 13, 2023 by JC25427N

[WeR138]

On 4/13/2023 at 2:45 PM, sfcityduck said:

True I said that. But my sanity is safe. I suppose others might suffer less cognitive dissonance if I left.  And I would be happy to do so, but some things deserve a response.

So you lied?

[Mr Sneeze]

In all fairness to sfcityduck, the thread title invites this type of response and the toober in question is not someone l would want on my feed.

If you told me 20 years ago marvel was going to make Black Widow, Eternals, ShangChi, Dr Strange 2 and Antman 3, l would laugh and say,‘wait, they made Antman 1 and 2‘.

Edited April 14, 2023 by Mr Sneeze

[drotto]

On 4/13/2023 at 4:38 PM, sfcityduck said:

The answer to your first question is a clear "Yes." For example, drotto posted:

The answer to your second question is "Depends." The video that starts this thread is outright bigoted against gays, asians, women, etc. The fact that anyone would post that or endorse it is telling that politics are a big issue with those criticizing the MCU as being an M-SHE-U.  For some, its not writing at all.  It's just politics.  For others, maybe drotto is an example, they seem very conflicted. Drotto talks about bad writing, but only for the female centered movies. His solution is not better written female centered movies -- it is LESS female centered movies.  Make of that what you will.  I think he probably would become a convert to female centered movies if they were more like the Miles Morales movie (which truly was a well-written and entertaining film). But the MCU live action movies are stuck in a rut, whether male or female centered, and so they all come across a bit stale (not surprising given how many MCU movies we've had - I stopped being excited about Avengers movies at some point because they really started to suck). So he blames the female centering more than the writing. Again, I think he could be a convert to female centered movies, but right now he just wants less of them. Too bad he apparently has not seen Loki and WandaVision because they show us how entertaining new creative approaches can be. Drotto does not talk about those. 

Have have seen WandaVision it was ok, I liked the A plot, did not like the B plot.  Loki again was just fine, I liked the start, and grew tired of it by the end. So if you want to talk about bad writing in general sure let's go at it. I think the MCU as a whole post Endgame has been badly written (with a few exceptions), regardless of character, gender, or ideology. So, yes that bad writing affects these female characters. If push comes to shove I think Age of Ultron may be the worst movie in the MCU all around.

 

But we can also talk about brilliant writing where woman and other diverse groups were handled wonderfully. Let's start with the Expanse.  With a few hiccups fantastic writing, with a diverse and inclusive world.  The female characters stand toe to toe with the men and matter.  They are never falsely elevated, they have fualts, they stumble, and they succeed. The Yellowstone universe.  Beth, Helen  Mirrin's character Cara(1923), and the Elsa (the daughter) and Faith Hill's character ( the wife) in 1883, all strong fantastic female characters. The Boys, again great females characters, both good and bad. We can even go with a very female targeted show like the Marvelous Ms Maisel (yes it has had its issues, but overall well written). These shows give us diverse women, well written, impactful,  smart, interesting, etc. No character male or female in the MCU introduced in the last 5 years can hold a candle to any of those women. Why, because the current MCU writers are not capable of that level of characterization or story.

 

I recognize what I like, so stop twisting what I am saying, and stop trying to put words in my mouth.

[sfcityduck]

On 4/13/2023 at 2:07 PM, drotto said:

Have have seen WandaVision it was ok, I liked the A plot, did not like the B plot.  Loki again was just fine, I liked the start, and grew tired of it by the end. So if you want to talk about bad writing in general sure let's go at it. I think the MCU as a whole post Endgame has been badly written (with a few exceptions), regardless of character, gender, or ideology. So, yes that bad writing affects these female characters. If push comes to shove I think Age of Ultron may be the worst movie in the MCU all around.

 

But we can also talk about brilliant writing where woman and other diverse groups were handled wonderfully. Let's start with the Expanse.  With a few hiccups fantastic writing, with a diverse and inclusive world.  The female characters stand toe to toe with the men and matter.  They are never falsely elevated, they have fualts, they stumble, and they succeed. The Yellowstone universe.  Beth, Helen  Mirrin's character Cara(1923), and the Elsa (the daughter) and Faith Hill's character ( the wife) in 1883, all strong fantastic female characters. The Boys, again great females characters, both good and bad. We can even go with a very female targeted show like the Marvelous Ms Maisel (yes it has had its issues, but overall well written). These shows give us diverse women, well written, impactful,  smart, interesting, etc. No character male or female in the MCU introduced in the last 5 years can hold a candle to any of those women. Why, because the current MCU writers are not capable of that level of characterization or story.

 

I recognize what I like, so stop twisting what I am saying, and stop trying to put words in my mouth.

I love the Expanse books.  The tv series did not hook me.  

I'm convinced the best writing on tv is a Disney property - Star Wars: Andor.  The final episode was utterly brilliant.  There's an extended sequence (18 or so minutes maybe longer), a funeral basically, with very minimal dialogue. Almost all character emotions are conveyed non-verbally and some of those emotions are very intense. You know the writing is brilliant when the writers feel no need to write dialogue. First three episodes are ok, next three are fun, following arc has great acting by Andy Serkis, and the finale is jaw dropping.  Highly recommended. And, yes, it features many strong female characters including a lesbian couple. The theme is how the rebellion against the Empire started. 

I'm not going to put up Mandalorian, Obi Wan, Boba Fett, or other fan service tv series to Andor when it comes to writing. It is not even a contest.  Same thing with fan service tv like Hawkeye.  But, I might put up Loki and WandaVision in a place near Andor because those were super innovative and creative shows. Better than many shows in the same genre and audience targets.

I agree that all phases of the MCU movies (and the Sony movies) have had their weaknesses.  Some of them I just have not been motivated to watch based on what I saw of them. So I'm not surprised by bad writing in the later phases - I tend to expect it.  But I don't go to an MCU movie expecting a sublime plot and writing. They are comic book movies in the truest sense of the term. I am looking for escapist entertainment and they almost always deliver that in varying degrees of acceptable quality.

 

[JC25427N]

I think we have come as close to peace as we will get.

 

Where do I pick up my Nobel Prize 

[drotto]

On 4/13/2023 at 5:20 PM, sfcityduck said:

I love the Expanse books.  The tv series did not hook me.  

I'm convinced the best writing on tv is a Disney property - Star Wars: Andor.  The final episode was utterly brilliant.  There's an extended sequence (18 or so minutes maybe longer), a funeral basically, with very minimal dialogue. Almost all character emotions are conveyed non-verbally and some of those emotions are very intense. You know the writing is brilliant when the writers feel no need to write dialogue. First three episodes are ok, next three are fun, following arc has great acting by Andy Serkis, and the finale is jaw dropping.  Highly recommended. And, yes, it features many strong female characters including a lesbian couple. The theme is how the rebellion against the Empire started. 

I'm not going to put up Mandalorian, Obi Wan, Boba Fett, or other fan service tv series to Andor when it comes to writing. It is not even a contest.  Same thing with fan service tv like Hawkeye.  But, I might put up Loki and WandaVision in a place near Andor because those were super innovative and creative shows. Better than many shows in the same genre and audience targets.

I agree that all phases of the MCU movies (and the Sony movies) have had their weaknesses.  Some of them I just have not been motivated to watch based on what I saw of them. So I'm not surprised by bad writing in the later phases - I tend to expect it.  But I don't go to an MCU movie expecting a sublime plot and writing. They are comic book movies in the truest sense of the term. I am looking for escapist entertainment and they almost always deliver that in varying degrees of acceptable quality.

 

If you want to put yourself out there as the premier IP, you need to be getting the best people so you can maintain that status.  That starts with the writers.  They have hired too many people, with too little experience, or experience with very different types of properties, and it shows. The development and failure of many of the female characters in the MCU, is just enblematic of wider problems with the MCU.  Does, it get too much emphasis and hate, likely yes.  It has become the focal point of attacks, because it is an easy target.

[sfcityduck]

On 4/13/2023 at 2:30 PM, drotto said:

If you want to put yourself out there as the premier IP, you need to be getting the best people so you can maintain that status.  That starts with the writers.  They have hired too many people, with too little experience, or experience with very different types of properties, and it shows. The development and failure of many of the female characters in the MCU, is just enblematic of wider problems with the MCU.  Does, it get too much emphasis and hate, likely yes.  It has become the focal point of attacks, because it is an easy target.

Marvel movies, whether Marvel or Sony or Disney, have always received criticism for their writing - some of it very justified, with all Hulk and FF movies particularly bad in my opinion.  The MCU has the same problem as Marvel Comics. Superhero stories are formulaic and get repetitive, and the obvious solution of moving the characters forward in life causes fan discomfort and leads to reboots, retcons, restarts, and reversible deaths/marriages.  It is not an easy task to keep a cinematic universe going and no one has done it as well as Marvel. But it is bound to have hiccups and probably destined to collapse. Probably no mystery that very short tv series like Agent Carter and WandaVision are a better watch than long series like Agents of Shield that eventually get lost in the desert. Far easier to have a beginning, middle and end, than a beginning with no end in sight. Which is why I think Iger is right you have to shift to new characters to keep things fresh. 

[Beige]

On 4/14/2023 at 5:52 AM, Hulksdaddy1 said:

You all realize @sfcityduck is not debating Disney/Marvel movies, right? He's debating his ideology, which is why facts will have no effect on his beliefs.

The guy is ALWAYS right in soo many threads.

You should be grateful he spared the time to school us in this one.

 

He mingles with billionaires you know, he told me in a thread to validate his opinion.

 

He didn't say how diverse they were though.........  

[Bosco685]

On 4/13/2023 at 6:06 PM, Beige said:

The guy is ALWAYS right in soo many threads.

You should be grateful he spared the time to school us in this one.

 

He mingles with billionaires you know, he told me in a thread to validate his opinion.

 

He didn't say how diverse they were though.........  

[jdandns]

If these doods were right, the movies and TV shows would stop.

Uh, most of us will end up stopping before they do.

[sfcityduck]

Rolling Stone weighs in:

Brie Larson’s ‘The Marvels’ Already Has MCU Fanboys in Their Feelings – Rolling Stone

 

[Microchip]

On 4/14/2023 at 6:06 AM, sfcityduck said:

This whole thread is about ideology.  Did you watch the video that started it?  

As for my ideology, I'm with Stan Lee. This is a better video than the one that starts this thread:

In it, Stan Lee states:

"Marvel has always been and always will be a reflection of the world right outside our window.  That world may change and evolve, but the one thing that will never change is the way we tell our stories of heroism. Those stories have room for everyone, regardless of their race, gender or color of their skin.  The only things we don’t have room for are hatred, intolerance and bigotry.”

Your 'ideology' is a top down agenda, mandated by certain interested parties via international lending requirements, or in the form of grants to universities coming with 'your' ideology.

THIS IS NOT a reflection of the world right outside our window.   Hence why the majority is rejecting the ideology whole in every aspect of it.   You need to look at the people in your family, your community, none of this ideology originates with them.  You're simply parroting handed down cultural mandates from elite institutions.  Institutions with 100% conflicted interest in pursuing this ideology.

Stan was talking to the majority, not you.

[sfcityduck]

On 4/13/2023 at 6:22 PM, Microchip said:

Your 'ideology' is a top down agenda, mandated by certain interested parties via international lending requirements, or in the form of grants to universities coming with 'your' ideology.

THIS IS NOT a reflection of the world right outside our window.   Hence why the majority is rejecting the ideology whole in every aspect of it.   You need to look at the people in your family, your community, none of this ideology originates with them.  You're simply parroting handed down cultural mandates from elite institutions.  Institutions with 100% conflicted interest in pursuing this ideology.

 

I'm sorry, but I'm not up on the latest conspiracy theories you are referencing.

• Who are the "certain interested parties"?
• What international lending requirements?
• Grants by whom to what universities?  
• What "ideology" are you even attacking?

If you can string a couple of sentences together that actually plainly state whatever it is you are trying to insinuate, I'd be more than happy to let you know what my community, my family, and the majority of America actually believes about whatever your conspiracy theory is.  

I'm not going to hold my breath that you will do so or that this has anything at all to do with the MCU.

[Microchip]

On 4/14/2023 at 11:36 AM, sfcityduck said:

I'm sorry, but I'm not up on the latest conspiracy theories you are referencing.

• Who are the "certain interested parties"?
• What international lending requirements?
• Grants by whom to what universities?  
• What "ideology" are you even attacking?

If you can string a couple of sentences together that actually plainly state whatever it is you are trying to insinuate, I'd be more than happy to let you know what my community, my family, and the majority of America actually believes about whatever your conspiracy theory is.  

I'm not going to hold my breath that you will do so or that this has anything at all to do with the MCU.

So to quickly ascertain your standpoint, what are your pronouns again?

 

[sfcityduck]

On 4/13/2023 at 6:40 PM, Microchip said:

So to quickly ascertain your standpoint, what are your pronouns again?

 

I don't identify pronouns.  As a lawyer who litigates contract disputes, I'm a big fan of accurate grammar. If I did, they would be he/him.

[sfcityduck]

On 4/13/2023 at 6:40 PM, Microchip said:

So to quickly ascertain your standpoint, what are your pronouns again?

 

How long will it take you to quickly ascertain your standpoint on the answers to my questions about your conspiracy theory?