theCapraAegagrus Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 On 4/13/2023 at 1:40 PM, sfcityduck said: You guys aren't on the same --script any more. Capra meet drotto. Drotto just took you to school. He is taking the same position now that I took up thread. She was a poor manager, Disney fired her for that reason, and this had nothing to do with female centered movies - which is what we are discussing. The rest is just your feelings. If you're reading correctly, we're on the same page. We know, divide and conquer is easier than making up another excuse. sfcityduck 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theCapraAegagrus Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 You're reading that I'm calling Alonso a high-functioning alcoholic, while drotto is just calling her an alcoholic. Either we're both calling her an alcoholic and you're claiming that she's sober. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfcityduck Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 (edited) On 4/13/2023 at 10:41 AM, theCapraAegagrus said: If you're reading correctly, we're on the same page. We know, divide and conquer is easier than making up another excuse. Try again. That failed. Drotto just blew you away. I'm not trying to pump up Disney stock - I got no horse in that race. I'm defending female centered movies from the slander I see on this thread. And drotto just explained why the firing of this executive had nothing to do with female centered movies. I'm perfectly ok if you want to say Disney has financial problems because of bad cost management. That cuts against the argument that they are suffering due to female centered movies. Edited April 13, 2023 by sfcityduck Larryw7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drotto Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 (edited) On 4/13/2023 at 1:40 PM, sfcityduck said: You guys aren't on the same ---script any more. Capra meet drotto. Drotto just took you to school. He is taking the same position now that I took up thread. She was a poor manager, Disney fired her for that reason, and this had nothing to do with female centered movies - which is what we are discussing. The rest is just your feelings. The two are not mutually exclusive. But they are both symptoms of poor management, where it has been activism over story, as exemplified by how the genders are currently being handled in the MCU. The two treads are tied together. This has no bearing on what was done right or wrong 10 years ago. Who does not care about all this stuff is the fans, provided the stories are good. Edited April 13, 2023 by drotto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfcityduck Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 (edited) On 4/13/2023 at 10:45 AM, drotto said: The two are not mutually exclusive. But they are both symptoms of poor management, where it has been activism over story, as exemplified by how the genders are currently being handled in the MCU. The two treads are tied together. This has no bearing on what was done right or wrong 10 years ago. Who does not care about all this stuff is the fans, provided the stories are good. Disney corporate travails and the plight of specific Disney Executives matters not at all to the position taken by you in this argument, which is: Female centered movies are causing the MCU to fail. The problem you cannot seem to get around is that four of the top ten grossing films of 2020 were Marvel properties. Marvel is not failing. So you now try to argue that Disney is losing money to prop up your case. But there is a complete disconnect that you at least acknowledged (a bit) to which capra is blind. He has no idea what we're discussing. You do, but the facts aren't helping you at all. Certainly, vfx problems don't help you. They would be the same with any story if the same executive was in charge (and let's be real, she was a force behind many of your favorite movies of the past). Edited April 13, 2023 by sfcityduck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theCapraAegagrus Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 On 4/13/2023 at 1:44 PM, sfcityduck said: Try again. That failed. Drotto just blew you away. I'm not trying to pump up Disney stock - I got no horse in that race. I'm defending female centered movies from the slander I see on this thread. And drotto just explained why the firing of this executive had nothing to do with female centered movies. I'm perfectly ok if you want to say Disney has financial problems because of bad cost management. That cuts against the argument that they are suffering due to female centered movies. Except that he and I are on the same page... He explained how her poor decision-making, due to poor priorities, led to her firing, correct. It's directly related to what I said. sfcityduck 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theCapraAegagrus Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 Marvel not hurting. Disney no do bad. All is good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfcityduck Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 On 4/13/2023 at 10:53 AM, theCapraAegagrus said: He explained how her poor decision-making, due to poor priorities, led to her firing Drotto is not really arguing that and if he is he has not offered a shred of evidence that she was fired due to "activism." She was fired because she was in charge vfx, alienated vfx employees and venders, and they have a vfx crisis. Disney hasn't cited her "activism" as a problem and she has not sued claiming she was sued for an improper reason (that I know of) which would be the case if there was even a hint of that being the reason. All you've got are your feelings. You bring no evidence to bear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drotto Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 On 4/13/2023 at 1:44 PM, sfcityduck said: Try again. That failed. Drotto just blew you away. I'm not defending trying to pump up Disney stock - I got no horse in that race. I'm defending female centered movies from the slander I see on this thread. And drotto just explained why the firing of this executive had nothing to do with female centered movies. I'm perfectly ok if you want to say Disney has financial problems because of bad cost management. That cuts against the argument that they are suffering due to female centered movies. Are you saying Alonso's activism and political views had no impact on what she has been doing at Marvel, and at Disney? That her activism is not another part of why she got fired? The VFX and management was part of her getting fired, and it was the easy path that would lead to less backlash against Disney. But thinking that these other things did not play a role, to say that she was not becoming a political liability for Iger is ignoring the larger picture. This is the person who said the X-Men name is outdated and makes no sense. The person who pushed and admitted pushing Disney into the political space. Who was actively working to oust Chapick. Who is on record saying she wanted to and intends to push her views into her product. Who saw her product as a platform. Again, nobody is slandering female characters or projects. We are asking for well written, politically neutral female products. Give us that and it does not matter if every lead is female, but recent Marvel has not done that. You are saying the fact that the product is female lead is more important than the quality of the product. We disagree. I am not sure why you dismiss the fact that the MCU has changed it's focus (regardless of the quaility dip), and now is seeing a decrease in returns. Yet you deny there may be any connection? All of this is connected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfcityduck Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 On 4/13/2023 at 10:57 AM, theCapraAegagrus said: Marvel not hurting. Disney no do bad. All is good. Three observations: (1) Your chart does not support that Disney lost money on Q. It instead supports that they made $140M over budget. (2) Between 2018 and 2023 there was a pandemic. Industry-wide factors are at play here, which are not limited to Disney, which have depressed box office receipts. (3) Which is why even though Q is down from prior years' movies, that's still a great result as Q is sitting in the top two or three grosses for 2023. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theCapraAegagrus Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 (edited) On 4/13/2023 at 2:04 PM, sfcityduck said: Drotto is not really arguing that and if he is he has not offered a shred of evidence that she was fired due to "activism." She was fired because she was in charge vfx, alienated vfx employees and venders, and they have a vfx crisis. Disney hasn't cited her "activism" as a problem and she has not sued claiming she was sued for an improper reason (that I know of) which would be the case if there was even a hint of that being the reason. All you've got are your feelings. You bring no evidence to bear. Alonso, herself, claims that she was fired because she failed to do her job to remove scenes for international releases. Do you have a clue what that reason could be? Maybe now you see how it all ties together? Edited April 13, 2023 by theCapraAegagrus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Balls Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 In other news, Brie Larsen opening a beer is never a failure. TupennyConan and Mystafo 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theCapraAegagrus Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 On 4/13/2023 at 2:07 PM, sfcityduck said: Three observations: (1) Your chart does not support that Disney lost money on Q. It instead supports that they made $140M over budget. (2) Between 2018 and 2023 there was a pandemic. Industry-wide factors are at play here, which are not limited to Disney, which have depressed box office receipts. (3) Which is why even though Q is down from prior years' movies, that's still a great result as Q is sitting in the top two or three grosses for 2023. Go read the thread itself, you have no clue what you're talking about. Quantumania bombed hard. Larryw7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drotto Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 (edited) On 4/13/2023 at 2:04 PM, sfcityduck said: Drotto is not really arguing that and if he is he has not offered a shred of evidence that she was fired due to "activism." She was fired because she was in charge vfx, alienated vfx employees and venders, and they have a vfx crisis. Disney hasn't cited her "activism" as a problem and she has not sued claiming she was sued for an improper reason (that I know of) which would be the case if there was even a hint of that being the reason. All you've got are your feelings. You bring no evidence to bear. Disney can never admit this in the current political environment. They would get annihilated in the public space, and they would give Alonso the grounds for a legitimate wrongeful termination and possible discrimination case. Alonso is suing Disney, and her personal traits are part of the suit, you just have to look at the wording in her lawyers press statement. It clearly states her ethnicity and other preferences. Edited April 13, 2023 by drotto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfcityduck Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 On 4/13/2023 at 11:04 AM, drotto said: Are you saying Alonso's activism and political views had no impact on what she has been doing at Marvel, and at Disney? That her activism is not another part of why she got fired? The VFX and management was part of her getting fired, and it was the easy path that would lead to less backlash against Disney. But thinking that these other things did not play a role, to say that she was not becoming a political liability for Iger is ignoring the larger picture. There is no evidence that your feelings are correct. Iger is more than happy to fight political fights on the culture war front as we see in Florida. He dumped her, after Disney embraced her for years, because she was blowing it as a manager. Ultimately, what gets most people like her fired is the question: "What have you done for me lately?" Vfx took her down. Her old-style management style now seen as abusive took her down. That's what all the reports I see say. If there was even a hint that she was taken down for advocating for gay rights or some sort of protected sthat than we'd see a lawsuit. Can you point to a single article by a reputable source saying she was fired for her "activism"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfcityduck Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 On 4/13/2023 at 11:10 AM, drotto said: Disney can never admit this in the current political environment. They would get annihilated in the public space, and they would give Alonso the grounds for a legitimate wrongeful termination and possible discrimination case. Alonso is suing Disney, and her personal traits are part of the suit, you just have to look at the wording in her lawyers press statement. It clearly states her ethnicity and other preferences. Link it. I'd like to see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drotto Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 On 4/13/2023 at 2:13 PM, sfcityduck said: Link it. I'd like to see it. https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/business/story/2023-03-24/victoria-alonso-fired-marvel-silenced-gay-latina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfcityduck Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 On 4/13/2023 at 11:08 AM, theCapraAegagrus said: Alonso, herself, claims that she was fired because she failed to do her job to remove scenes for international releases. Do you have a clue what that reason could be? Maybe now you see how it all ties together? If she admits she was fired for failing to do her job, then she is dead in the water in her suit that drotto says she filed. But that still has nothing to do with female centered movies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theCapraAegagrus Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 (edited) On 4/13/2023 at 2:14 PM, sfcityduck said: If she admits she was fired for failing to do her job, then she is dead in the water in her suit that drotto says she filed. But that still has nothing to do with female centered movies. Sure it does, as she was promoted post-Endgame into a role to oversee movies (and shows) to a closer degree. To include budgets and VFX, among other things, such as overseeing scripts and direction (in her own words). She became more directly involved only after Endgame. It's not a coincidence. Marvel has admitted that she's largely to blame for the so-called M-She-U by firing her. I can be an alcoholic outside of work, but once it affects my work, I expect to be fired. This is where her suit will fall flat. Had her activism not impacted her performance and she was still fired, she'd have a case. Edited April 13, 2023 by theCapraAegagrus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfcityduck Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 On 4/13/2023 at 11:14 AM, drotto said: https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/business/story/2023-03-24/victoria-alonso-fired-marvel-silenced-gay-latina Thanks. That's a very weak presentation of a discrimination case. I don't see it going anywhere. Based on the article, she looks dead in the water because she violated her contract by making and promoting a non-Disney film. Again, has she filed suit or was this just a test by her attorney to see if Disney wanted to bury adverse publicity? Iger's statement about wanting to do new characters and less sequels cuts against your view on the use of new characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
