Marvel Comics #1, October or November 1939. How rare are the OCT dated copies? 2 2

[Silver Surfer]

Out of curiosity, how long did it take for issue #2 to come out. And given that issue 1 was basically the start of things for Timely could they have not continued to print November copies throughout the month of September eventually printing a total of 800,000 additional copies?

[Get Marwood & I]

On 6/23/2024 at 8:17 PM, Yorick said:

I see that differently, thanks to your lovely side-by-side image.  "NOV" appears to shift all over the place.  The slug also seems to move slightly.  The black ink lines behind and around the slug disappear in the third example (could just be a later worn-plate print). 

I see what you mean, yes. How do you think the black circle and NOV was applied, Yoz? 

[Yorick]

On 6/23/2024 at 12:23 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

I see what you mean, yes. How do you think the black circle and NOV was applied, Yoz? 

That's where I'm scratching my chin.  Crazy to imagine running the printed covers through twice more to have NOV and slug added.

Maybe hand-stamped by Ethel?

[Ameri]

On 6/23/2024 at 1:45 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

One other point to throw into the mix, the overprint changes position from cover to cover which often indicates that it was applied after the event (albeit there's quite a bit of plate movement in evidence between these copies which makes it harder to tell):

  

The fact that you can see the original OCT under the overprint however is concrete evidence of course that the black circle was applied after the cover was printed. 

Covers are printed separately to the guts.

If we believe the second printing scenario, with an after the event overprint, it would have happened something like this:

1. 80,000 covers printed with an October cover month
2. That sells out, so a further 800,000 are requested and printed, also with an October cover month
3. Those 800,000 are then run through a separate overprint to correct the month to November

 

 

That's amazing research Marwood! It appears you hit it on the head. Every issue was printed with October and then an overprint plate was created to correct the month like the later 10c to 12c slug that Marvel deployed (that tended to shift around from copy to copy just like it did on Marvel 1s). The difference with Marvel 1 is that somehow October issues slipped out before they were all overprinted (they shouldn't have slipped out like that as you say). The fact that OCT and NOV copies exist at all could infer some kind of 2nd print run but this is lost to time so to definitively say that there was a 2nd print run is conjecture at best. As Primetime mentions earlier in this thread, there were documented problems with getting Marvel 1 on the newsstands. Bill Everett needed to cobble an extra 4 pages to his Sub-Mariner story and the dates on the Marvel 1 pay copy show other conflicting dates of payment to the various artists and writers which shows that the book had it's problems with Funnies Inc trying to piece it together (Goodman was just a recipient, all the writers and artists were with the other company). This scramble if you want to call it as such, quite probably caused delays in keeping Marvel 1 on any fixed schedule causing a monthly distribution conflict that had to be corrected with the overprint so it wouldn't mess with the scheduled distribution of Marvel 2. If that makes any sense. 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 6/23/2024 at 8:26 PM, Yorick said:

That's where I'm scratching my chin.  Crazy to imagine running the printed covers through twice more to have NOV and slug added.

We never seem to be able to get to the bottom of what happened on these bloody books 

On 6/23/2024 at 8:26 PM, Yorick said:

Maybe hand-stamped by Ethel?

No one outside my threads will understand that, Yoz 

[Silver Surfer]

It’s frustrating that after all these years no one could speak first hand about this process, was there when it happened, or had family members who were involved, such a shame. 

[Yorick]

On 6/23/2024 at 12:29 PM, Ameri said:

Bill Everett needed to cobble an extra 4 pages to his Sub-Mariner story

Does this mean that some copies have extra interior pages?

[Yorick]

Hypothetical: Since it's a #1, perhaps the publisher over-extended himself $$$ and needed to get some quick cash back out of the printing in order to pay-off the full order.  He could have pulled a box to sell right-away.

[Get Marwood & I]

On 6/23/2024 at 8:29 PM, Ameri said:

That's amazing research Marwood! It appears you hit it on the head. Every issue was printed with October and then an overprint plate was created to correct the month like the later 10c to 12c slug that Marvel deployed (that tended to shift around from copy to copy just like it did on Marvel 1s). The difference with Marvel 1 is that somehow October issues slipped out before they were all overprinted (they shouldn't have slipped out like that as you say). The fact that OCT and NOV copies exist at all could infer some kind of 2nd print run but this is lost to time so to definitively say that there was a 2nd print run is conjecture at best. As Primetime mentions earlier in this thread, there were documented problems with getting Marvel 1 on the newsstands. Bill Everett needed to cobble an extra 4 pages to his Sub-Mariner story and the dates on the Marvel 1 pay copy show other conflicting dates of payment to the various artists and writers which shows that the book had it's problems with Funnies Inc trying to piece it together (Goodman was just a recipient, all the writers and artists were with the other company). This scramble if you want to call it as such, quite probably caused delays in keeping Marvel 1 on any fixed schedule causing a monthly distribution conflict that had to be corrected with the overprint so it wouldn't mess with the scheduled distribution of Marvel 2. If that makes any sense. 

If we look at these plates for an Alan Class book that I own, you can see that each colour plate has to have an area gouged out to ensure that the one shilling price prints as white (i.e. no ink). Only the black (K) plate has the precise outline of the shilling symbol:

On our Marvel Comics #1, the colour plates will each have had to have that OCT. cut into them so that it appeared as white on the final cover.

They could all be used again, if the K (black) plate alone was amended or remade to have a black circle and NOV. added. That is why we can see the original OCT under the black circle - it's still there as a result of the other three original colour plates being used. 

So there are therefore two 'second printing' scenarios:

1. They used all four original plates, ran off the 800K OCT. covers, and then ran those covers through a separate machine to add the black circle / NOV.
2. They amended the K plate to include the black circle / NOV.

In option 1, the covers go through twice, in option 2, only once. 

What do we think? Any printers in town tonight, with c1939 experience?

[Ameri]

On 6/23/2024 at 3:33 PM, Yorick said:

Does this mean that some copies have extra interior pages?

Sorry Evan, I should have clarified this better. The Submariner story from Motion Picture Funnies Weekly was lengthened to 4 extra pages for Marvel 1. There are no extra pages on Marvel 1 copies.  

[Yorick]

On 6/23/2024 at 12:43 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

I'd love to see more images of Oct.  That cyan shade balloon only has the slightest hint of the black plate outline remaining.  Not nearly as strong an outline as what is shown on one of those Nov.'s:

On 6/23/2024 at 10:32 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

My assumption would be that as the print run continues, the wear on that plate would reduce the line impression and erase it.  But that's not the case because you have other Nov examples completely missing the black lines too:

On 6/23/2024 at 10:45 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

While it COULD have been a depletion of black ink on the plate, it strangely affects no other black on the images shown.

That cyan plate on the last image is way off-register. 

 

[adamstrange]

From my reading, comics were usually the cheapest thing getting printed.  There were rigid deadlines for getting the art submitted to ensure that you kept your spot in the production calendar.  The scenario proposed for Marvel 1 would require extremely tight turnaround time from a first print at end of August to get a much bigger print run a week or two later. 

It could be that since the plates were ready it wasn't that big of a deal, especially if Goodman delayed something else he already had scheduled with the printer.

[stock_rotation]

Another possibility is the interiors were printed first, and the covers last. It dawned on someone that complete production of the book with an October cover date could not be done on time. Maybe a distributor shut-off window or something?

Instead, they collated and bound as many copies with an October cover date as they had printed covers (80,000?), shipped them out, then added the overprint to the cover for the remaining books of the run. This might have let them have a rolling distribution of November copies. If the book was as popular as it seemed (with the Oct printing selling out quickly), they could ship parts of the run as they were completed.

Edit to add: In case it's not clear, because of time constraints, they would be looking to avoid creating an entirely new black plate. They would continue to use the Oct black plate, with an additional slug plate added to fix the Oct error

Edited June 23 by stock_rotation

[Primetime]

On 6/23/2024 at 12:20 PM, Silver Surfer said:

Out of curiosity, how long did it take for issue #2 to come out. And given that issue 1 was basically the start of things for Timely could they have not continued to print November copies throughout the month of September eventually printing a total of 800,000 additional copies?

Marvel Mystery 2 was out by mid October, 1939 (Dec, 1939 cover date)

[Primetime]

On 6/23/2024 at 12:32 PM, Silver Surfer said:

It’s frustrating that after all these years no one could speak first hand about this process, was there when it happened, or had family members who were involved, such a shame. 

Lots of questions for Jacquet and Goodman for sure. 

[Primetime]

On 6/23/2024 at 12:33 PM, Yorick said:

Does this mean that some copies have extra interior pages?

No. The original Subby story origin was 8 pages in MPFW1 (April, 1939). Goodman asked Everett to expand the 8 pages to 12 pages for Marvel 1 (64 pages total)

Edited June 23 by Primetime

[Primetime]

On 6/23/2024 at 12:39 PM, Yorick said:

Hypothetical: Since it's a #1, perhaps the publisher over-extended himself $$$ and needed to get some quick cash back out of the printing in order to pay-off the full order.  He could have pulled a box to sell right-away.

Perhaps, but Goodman had already been a very successful pulp producer and distributor since 1933. He was slick and knew how to make his money work for him. Frank Torpey (Funnies, Inc.) did a good job convincing Goodman to get into the comic biz. 

Edited June 23 by Primetime

[Primetime]

On 6/23/2024 at 1:11 PM, Yorick said:

I'd love to see more images of Oct.  That cyan shade balloon only has the slightest hint of the black plate outline remaining.  Not nearly as strong an outline as what is shown on one of those Nov.'s:

My assumption would be that as the print run continues, the wear on that plate would reduce the line impression and erase it.  But that's not the case because you have other Nov examples completely missing the black lines too:

While it COULD have been a depletion of black ink on the plate, it strangely affects no other black on the images shown.

That cyan plate on the last image is way off-register. 

 

Off register is a good characterization of Marvel 1 for sure. That Newark, NJ print shop where Marvel 1 was printed had Goodman leaving for Buffalo, NY to print Marvel Mystery 2-6 and about six other Timelys between October 1939 - March 1940. 

[Silver Surfer]

On 6/23/2024 at 1:53 PM, Primetime said:

Lots of questions for Jacquet and Goodman for sure. 

And I see that the cover artist, Paul, passed in 1963 so I’m sure that there was other things going on at Marvel at that time that kept them from even thinking about this topic. 

[Sarg]

You had to print at least 200,000 just to break even.

No way Goodman would have voluntarily lost a ton of money printing 80,000.