Seller sold an incomplete book to me - How would you respond? 10 10

[eastriver400]

On 5/23/2023 at 4:33 PM, Lightning55 said:

People should not be making purchases of items they "do not know anything about". Period.

I disagree.  And so does the law.  Otherwise we would live in a pretty messed up civilization. 

[Funnybooks]

On 5/23/2023 at 4:33 PM, Lightning55 said:

People should not be making purchases of items they "do not know anything about". Period.

so, you know everything about every single item you've ever purchased? 

[O Doyle Rules]

On 5/23/2023 at 4:33 PM, iggykoopa said:

The time that has already passed is what I'm getting hung up on. He sent it off to CGC without inspecting it. As another member pointed out, if the TATs were still 10 months he wouldn't know about the incomplete book until a year from now. Would it be ok for OP to reach out to the seller and ask for a full refund a year later? Where's the line? 60 days is a long time to ask for a full refund. I say take what you can get back (in this case $100) and cut your losses. Reputable dealer or not there has to be some kind of timeframe to make a claim. 

I would not have bothered a year after the fact as clearly that is not reasonable. I paid for Standard service and fortunately it was processed by CGC in a timely fashion. Sixty days too long  to ask for a refund if the seller has misrepresented (intentionally or honest mistake) a material fact about the comic upon which the buyer relied upon prior to purchasing? I think not. I used to work in an industry where misrepresentation (intentional or not) would cost me my job, fines and possible jail time. That time line could be until the statute of limitation had expired. 

[Dr. Love]

yeh but this is not that industry.  Ever buy a house?  It's a more appropriate analogy.  Seller has to provide disclosures for what they purport to know - not what they should know.  In hindsight, their knowledge may be incomplete or faulty.  Buyer has a specific window of time to do inspections, but doesn't have to.  Buyer waives inspection and goes through with the purchase and subsequently discovers undisclosed or incorrect info about the house condition.  Can the buyer sue?  Absolutely.  Will they win?  Absolutely not.  Are they entitled to win?  Absolutely not.

As far as not "outing" the seller yet - giving them a chance to make it right...you think if they were to capitulate in the end that we still wouldn't deserve to know whether a seller is capable of performing a simple count, every time and without error?  As they represented to you they did?  That if you end up whole then no harm no foul and no jedi here to the rest of the community?

 

[justafan]

On 5/23/2023 at 4:35 PM, O Doyle Rules said:

I now understand the "he said she said" statement better. Thank you. My only response is that I feel CGC's word weighs much heavier on the scale than the seller since they are deemed an impartial 3rd party expert. In civil court the scales just needs to be tipped in my favor. CGC is pretty much my expert witness in a court of law. I think CGC's testimony will win over the seller's word every time in court. I have been nothing but polite to the seller and only used the language that eBay advised me to express to him concerning this situation. 

You're doing the right thing, then.  Just keep working with ebay. 

I like to think most of us on here trust and like to believe that CGC is an impartial 3rd party expert (despite several events in recent years that have taken a hit to CGC's credibility).  I do hope that they hold weight in ebay's court for your sake.  I'm not sure what kind of relationship ebay and CGC have but at one point they did offer a visual verification service with ebay.

However, this will be an interesting precedent set if they rule in your favor for a full refund as it could be a double edged sword. 

On the one hand it could be a means by which buyers can have their book's grades/restoration/completeness checked by CGC and sent back for a full refund due to SNAD outside the normal return window. 

On the other hand, it would mean anyone could buy a book off ebay, tamper with it (remove wraps, centerfolds, inserts, tattooz, staples, digital code stickers for use in more expensive books) send it in to get graded, and have the book come back SNAD and have a case opened for a full refund outside the normal return window. Actually, the more I think of it, this would force sellers to add more photos documenting the presence of these items and making buying and selling less risky.

Good luck and keep us updated.

Edited May 23, 2023 by justafan
2nd thought

[O Doyle Rules]

On 5/23/2023 at 4:56 PM, Dr. Love said:

Ever buy a house?  It's a more appropriate analogy.  Seller has to provide disclosures for what they purport to know - not what they should know.  In hindsight, their knowledge may be incomplete or faulty.  Buyer has a specific window of time to do inspections, but doesn't have to.  Buyer waives inspection and goes through with the purchase and subsequently discovers undisclosed or incorrect info about the house condition.  Can the buyer sue?  Absolutely.  Will they win?  Absolutely not.  Are they entitled to win?  Absolutely not.

Not really. Your analogy is different circumstances. Here's a more precise analogy - I am willing to buy a house but I want the seller to provide me a statement stating that the age of the roof and does it or has it ever leaked before I purchase it. The seller provides a statement that the roof is in excellent shape, approximately 10 years old and has never leaked. The seller knows that am I relying upon his statement to purchase the home. 60 days after moving in the roof starts to leak. I hire a contractor to come out and he discovers that the roof had recent prior water damage numerous times over the past few months. I like my chances in these set of circumstances to win my case. I think this matches closer to my set of circumstances. 

[O Doyle Rules]

On 5/23/2023 at 4:56 PM, Dr. Love said:

As far as not "outing" the seller yet - giving them a chance to make it right...you think if they were to capitulate in the end that we still wouldn't deserve to know whether a seller is capable of performing a simple count, every time and without error?  As they represented to you they did?  That if you end up whole then no harm no foul and no jedi here to the rest of the community?

 

I will give an update as to how this situation wraps up. I may or may not chose to reveal the identity of the seller. He expressed to me that he made an honest mistake prior to going completely silent on me. I am not sure I owe the community outing the seller (unless it's proven to me he is being dishonest). Other than that, I do owe my heartfelt thanks for the advice and comments I have recieved here - pro and con to me - as they have all been helpful. 

[O Doyle Rules]

On 5/23/2023 at 4:58 PM, justafan said:

I like to think most of us on here trust and like to believe that CGC is an impartial 3rd party expert (despite several events in recent years that have taken a hit to CGC's credibility).  I do hope that they hold weight in ebay's court for your sake.  I'm not sure what kind of relationship ebay and CGC have but at one point they did offer a visual verification service with ebay.

However, this will be an interesting precedent set if they rule in your favor for a full refund as it could be a double edged sword. 

On the one hand it could be a means by which buyers can have their book's grades/restoration/completeness checked by CGC and sent back for a full refund due to SNAD outside the normal return window. 

On the other hand, it would mean anyone could buy a book off ebay, tamper with it (remove wraps, centerfolds, inserts, tattooz, staples, digital code stickers for use in more expensive books) send it in to get graded, and have the book come back SNAD and have a case opened for a full refund outside the normal return window. 

Keep us updated.

Thank you for your insight! Much appreciated I will definitely keep the forum updated. 

[shadroch]

Suppose you had put the book away for a year before you submitted it?  Would you still expect a refund? 

I'm sorry but when I sell anything,  the refund window closes after a month or so.   Take this as a learning experience and examine your purchases in a timely manner. 

[Dr. Balls]

On 5/23/2023 at 11:09 AM, O Doyle Rules said:

I feel though I should probably have the comic removed from the slab and just return the raw comic if he ever responds. 

This would be the best scenario for you. I would not want to be saddled with trying to sell a GLOD. I would shower the seller with platitudes and butter his bread to get back your original cost and send him back the book cracked out of the case. That would be a spike-the-ball win at this point, I think.

[O Doyle Rules]

On 5/23/2023 at 5:39 PM, shadroch said:

Suppose you had put the book away for a year before you submitted it?  Would you still expect a refund? 

No that is not reasonable. I would not expect a refund or even ask for one. See my other answer to another poster who asked the same question. 

[B2D327]

I have a question since the subject of “doing the right thing” on the seller’s part seems to come up here: Since you didn’t inspect the book before sending it off, let’s say the grading worked in your favor where the book graded higher than expected or turned out to be a double cover error, would you:

A) Flip the book and send a seller a portion of the profit?

B) Return the book and ask the seller for a refund because he should’ve charged you more?

C) Celebrate coming out ahead?

I am in the majority consensus that the seller should work with you on a mutually satisfying resolution but if I were in his shoes, I’d be a tad aggravated that a sale I made long before the refund window was being disputed long after that business had been conducted. 

Edited May 23, 2023 by B2D327

[Robot Man]

On 5/23/2023 at 2:59 PM, B2D327 said:

I have a question since the subject of “doing the right thing” on the seller’s part seems to come up here: Since you didn’t inspect the book before sending it off, let’s say the grading worked in your favor where the book graded higher than expected or turned out to be a double cover error, would you:

A) Flip the book and send a seller a portion of the profit?

B) Return the book and tell the seller for a refund because he should’ve    charged you more?

C) Celebrate coming out ahead?

I am in the majority consensus that the seller should work with you on a mutually satisfying resolution but if I were in his shoes, I’d be a tad aggravated that a sale I made long before the refund window was being disputed long after that business had been conducted. 

Well said…

[B2D327]

On 5/23/2023 at 6:02 PM, Robot Man said:

Well said…

Thank you. I have my moments 😁

[O Doyle Rules]

On 5/23/2023 at 5:39 PM, shadroch said:

I'm sorry but when I sell anything,  the refund window closes after a month or so.   Take this as a learning experience and examine your purchases in a timely manner. 

You are telling me if I specifically ask you if a comic is complete with no cutouts and you indicate to me that it is complete with no cutouts, but then, I don't discover the fact the comic is incomplete until 60 days later, you will not honor your representation given the fact I was relying upon your word and expertise as a comic book dealer? 

[Funnybooks]

If the seller would have properly labeled the book as incomplete, we would not be in this situation. The seller started this chain reaction by being careless ( at best ) in the listing and at worst, being fraudulent. I'm very surprised by all the responses to the contrary.

[Robot Man]

To the OP from a collector of over 50 years who has been through and seen just about every senario including this.

Since you do not like to handle books and are willing to pay up for GA books, consider only buy them slabbed and graded from now on. You seem a lot more comfortable this way. And this will remove this problem for you. Seriously, no sarcasm intended. 

[B2D327]

On 5/23/2023 at 6:07 PM, Funnybooks said:

I'm very surprised by all the responses to the contrary.

Maybe because a lot of us would’ve

A) inspected our purchase

B) handled the dispute within the allotted timeframe

[FlyingDonut]

On 5/23/2023 at 11:16 AM, O Doyle Rules said:

I purchased a Golden Age comic recently from an eBay seller which turned out to be incomplete (Missing centerfold). Prior to purchasing, the seller assured me the comic book was complete and that it also had no restoration. The comic was purchased for $400.00 plus sales tax. My intent when purchasing the comic was to send it off to CGC for grading. I did not inspect the comic or handle it since my intent was to get it graded and I did not want to cause any inadvertent damage to the comic. It was shipped off to CGC as received from the seller. I found out that the comic was not complete when the grading came in. They gave the comic a Qualified grade (green label) due to the centerfold missing. 

I contacted the seller and advised him of the situation. At first, he was responsive and ending up offering a partial refund of $100.00. I advised him that I did not feel that was adequate given the circumstances. I would have never purchased the comic had I known the comic was incomplete. I provided him some recent data from GPA which showed the comic would be valued way less than what I even paid for the raw copy. I responded back by asking for my money back plus the grading cost and I would return the graded comic to him. Or, I would accept a partial refund of $250.00 and keep the book. It was at this point, things went south. He basically said $100.00, take it or leave it - more so due to the length of time than anything else. He was informed approximately 60 days from the time I purchased the comic.

I contacted eBay and they advised their money back guarantee does not apply since it is over 30 days. They did feel my request to resolve the issue was more than reasonable and that the seller should provide the partial refund or take the comic back for a full refund. eBay indicated that the seller could have his account suspended and his ability to sell on eBay could be impacted if he does not resolve the issue. I advised seller of what eBay said and now he has gone completely silent - no response whatsoever. 

I followed up with eBay to report the seller's actions and they are reaching out to him directly. Any advice from this Forum? All thoughts and comments are greatly appreciated. Thank you! 

What's your eBay buying name?

[Funnybooks]

On 5/23/2023 at 6:16 PM, B2D327 said:

Maybe because a lot of us would’ve

A) inspected our purchase

B) handled the dispute within the allotted timeframe

so if you would have purchased a raw book that a seller assured you was universal. You receive it, inspect it, but, somehow you missed color touch and the book came back restored from cgc, the seller has no obligation to you?

Edited May 23, 2023 by Funnybooks