Seller sold an incomplete book to me - How would you respond? 10 10

[Dick Pontoon]

What exactly is the comic book that started all of this?

[O Doyle Rules]

On 5/24/2023 at 6:57 PM, ExNihilo said:

From our perspective, a refund less CGC would be fair. 

I offered the seller to resolve it for $250.00. I paid $430.00 + $85.00 to CGC. Or he could have the comic back for a full refund. Or I would also be willing to take a comic(s) from him instead of cash. Thought I was being very reasonable. 

[O Doyle Rules]

On 5/24/2023 at 11:46 PM, Nick Furious said:

He accepted and took the book back for a credit towards other purchases.  I think the difference here is that we had a history together and I offered a solution that didn't have him losing money in the form of cash.  I would suggest the same resolution in this situation...ask the dealer for a credit equal to your total costs...be willing to accept a compromise that does not include grading fees. 

I offered to take comics instead of cash to resolve it. He offered me a Silver Age and a Bronze Age comic that valued less than $100.00. 

[The Lions Den]

On 5/24/2023 at 9:12 PM, Telegan said:

I was going to post about this a couple of months ago after watching it, but forgot about it.  There was a (apparently I can't say the "D" word, so I'll say... ) Richard Tracy coupon that was apparently cut out on the last page.  The first/9.6 grader may not have made it that far in the grading or just looked at the cover and said ... "yeah, that's a 9.6". LOL.  This kind of spoon scares the hell out of me.  I don't resubmit books - hell, I've never even had a comic book graded, but nowadays am too scared to buy raw books - especially expensive'ish ones.  If I got that 9.6, the last thing I'd do is try to get it re-graded, and it's basically because of stories like Keston talks about in that video.

Whenever a book is cracked out, you run the risk of something being discovered that was overlooked the first time around...   

[ttfitz]

On 5/25/2023 at 10:27 AM, shadroch said:

On 5/24/2023 at 10:25 PM, ttfitz said:

Yeah, I would agree. Given how the OP said the seller responded - "He was clear that the comic was complete with no cutouts" suggests to me that he probably didn't count the pages, and didn't notice the missing centerfold, having mostly looked for "cutouts" in his inspection.

Does that sound like an experienced comic dealer?  

Given my experience - including one mentioned in this thread - I would say, yes, it sounds like an experienced comic dealer. Unfortunately.

[Lightning55]

Posted 5 minutes ago

On 5/25/2023 at 10:27 AM, shadroch said:

On 5/24/2023 at 10:25 PM, ttfitz said:

Yeah, I would agree. Given how the OP said the seller responded - "He was clear that the comic was complete with no cutouts" suggests to me that he probably didn't count the pages, and didn't notice the missing centerfold, having mostly looked for "cutouts" in his inspection.

Does that sound like an experienced comic dealer?  

On 5/25/2023 at 6:33 PM, ttfitz said:

Given my experience - including one mentioned in this thread - I would say, yes, it sounds like an experienced comic dealer. Unfortunately.

He probably responded "the comic is complete with no cutouts" because the OP asked "Is the comic complete with no cutouts".  Nothing sinister, nothing more to read into it.

[jcjames]

The seller is partly liable for apparently selling you an incomplete book advertised as "complete". 

The buyer, you, are also partly liable for not doing any reasonable inspection of the book or it's condition in a reasonable amount of time (ebay's refund dates). Had you done your part, that would have immediately alleviated you of all responsibility and placed all responsibility on the seller. 

The seller has zero liability for you choosing to send an uninspected book that you own off to CGC. That's 100% on you. 

Woulda-coulda-shoulda... take the $100 and learn your lesson about buying and grading books. 

 

 

[Old Fashion PB and J]

Is the seller responsible, yes. Within his return period offered, he has a 30 day return policy which is ample time to check the book, and return if needed. Being you never checked and you are no longer within the specified return window anything he does for you is him trying to do what he feels is right, but to expect him to jump through hoops for an ebay buyer all this time later isnt really reasonable either. My opinion is take the $100 and make sure you do your work in the future, and this isnt disrespectful as we have all made similar mistakes.

[01TheDude]

I find the OP sort of annoying. He claims that he only trusted the word of the seller verbatim as being complete etc.

Whatever-- I believe they said this came back as a 3.5 qualified versus getting a .5 incomplete grade.

Who the hell is afraid to open a book that is lower than mid-grade for fear of hurting condition?

That part makes ZERO sense

I examine every book I receive and I buy plenty of them from high to low but mostly mid grade. I don't mess with GA but do SA mostly. Every book I buy or sell gets a page count as standard grading practice. Pretty simple thing to take responsibility for. But no-- just send off a dang book for CGC grading without even looking inside of it? You know you could have a complete book with writing throughout it. Sorry--- the seller did make an error saying it was complete but the buyer did not do their part to examine it upon taking ownership. They could have avoided this whole thing.

What is fair at this point might be a refund of the cost of the book but no CGC fees. That's my take and I have no intention of reading anything the OP has to say in his defense. This is the way I handle things-- I could NOT care less about how careless they are in their affairs. This is the buyer's fault overall--- not 10%-- that is BS

[skypinkblu]

It's really important to know the name of the book. There ARE books that have odd page counts and even  experienced dealers miss them sometimes. Maybe it was just an innocent  mistake? 

This is also the reason I have started following @jimjum12's lead about setting a time limit if I "missed" something. About 2 years ago, someone bought a book from me that I said "might have restoration" because the person I bought it from sometimes had restored books. I hadn't seen anything, but I put that in my text just in case I missed something. The buyer held the book for a while, then had the book graded, it came back with "slight resto", I don't even remember what it was...he never contacted me when the book came back, instead he tried to sell the book for double what he paid for it, when it did not sell...he waited another few months (at least 6 since his original purchase) and wrote to me demanding a full refund because I was forever responsible. I never see myself as an "expert" I've never sold comics for a living, but I do try to check out everything including using high powered magnifiers. 

I did refund completely (but not the grading) but it annoyed me enough to add text to my sales threads. I think 60 days is long enough to check  on a book.

[ttfitz]

On 5/25/2023 at 6:46 PM, Lightning55 said:

He probably responded "the comic is complete with no cutouts" because the OP asked "Is the comic complete with no cutouts".  Nothing sinister, nothing more to read into it.

I don't think I suggested anything sinister, simply that he truly thought it was complete as he didn't see anything missing ("no cutouts") and hadn't bothered to count the pages.

[NP_Gresham]

I can’t read 10 pages of this nonsense.

Count pages, 100% your fault for subbing an incomplete book.

Refund your original cost but you eat the slabbing fees.

I am sorry this happened but quit your whining and accept a little responsibility

[jimjum12]

On 5/25/2023 at 9:31 PM, skypinkblu said:

I did refund completely (but not the grading) but it annoyed me enough to add text to my sales threads. I think 60 days is long enough to check  on a book.

... I also give a 2 week return window for ANY reason ... no explanation is necessary ...." found it cheaper", "don't like the story", "don't like the art", "spider sense went off", etc ... any reason or even no reason. I also extend this to slabs... in case you get it and it falls short once in hand. I think that's more than fair ,and it is then that problems need to be solved. Why don't I have a lifetime guarantee ? ... is the buyer going to include me in this "partnership" when they resell in a decade for 30 times purchase ? NO, they won't. That's why reading terms is important, not reading does not absolve. There are others besides Dale and Bob who do the forever guarantee, I think Bedrock may also. I will sometimes expand the terms of return if someone asks if it can stretch past a slab session, and I've agreed. GOD BLESS ... 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

 

.... when I was new I bought plenty of books with missing pages and undisclosed resto .... but I never expected someone else to fund my learning curve. It still happens to me from time to time.... 

[Randall Dowling]

On 5/25/2023 at 8:31 PM, skypinkblu said:

It's really important to know the name of the book. There ARE books that have odd page counts and even  experienced dealers miss them sometimes. Maybe it was just an innocent  mistake? 

This is also the reason I have started following @jimjum12's lead about setting a time limit if I "missed" something. About 2 years ago, someone bought a book from me that I said "might have restoration" because the person I bought it from sometimes had restored books. I hadn't seen anything, but I put that in my text just in case I missed something. The buyer held the book for a while, then had the book graded, it came back with "slight resto", I don't even remember what it was...he never contacted me when the book came back, instead he tried to sell the book for double what he paid for it, when it did not sell...he waited another few months (at least 6 since his original purchase) and wrote to me demanding a full refund because I was forever responsible. I never see myself as an "expert" I've never sold comics for a living, but I do try to check out everything including using high powered magnifiers. 

I did refund completely (but not the grading) but it annoyed me enough to add text to my sales threads. I think 60 days is long enough to check  on a book.

I've had this happen as well.  I've had times where I purchased books, set them in a pile with the rest of my collection (after doing a cursory assessment), and forgot about them for a few months.  Only to discover that a centerfold was detached (or some other significant defect).  It never entered my mind to ask for my money back after that much time.  It was on me to check the book when I purchased it.

And I've had a buyer ask to  return a book 3 months after they purchased because they finally checked and it wasn't as good a candidate for pressing as they thought.  I refunded the money but I think it's completely understandable to set some sort of reasonable limit for returns.  Frankly, 30 days seems reasonable to me.  I would never try to return a book after 30 days unless I discovered some sort of serious malfeasance by the seller (micro-trimming, etc.). 

[jimjum12]

On 5/25/2023 at 10:49 PM, Randall Dowling said:

serious malfeasance by the seller (micro-trimming, etc.). 

.... that is actually one of the more error prone assessments that is made in a resto check. I know people who submitted their own original books bought off the rack that came back as "trimmed", even though they weren't. It's not an exact science, as ALL comics are trimmed as part of the production process ... of course it's trimmed, it CAME that way form the production line. In the early days of slabbing, I was told by someone that they flagged a book as trimmed if it looked "too nice" ... but what about mint ? Some production defects will actually leave a book "looking" trimmed when it isn't. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) 

[skypinkblu]

On 5/25/2023 at 10:49 PM, jimjum12 said:

I also give a 2 week return window for ANY reason ... no explanation is necessary

I used to give 2 weeks, went to 7 days because I feel like I need to stay in town if it's during the time period (yes it's weird, it's just me) and I include slabs unless I have something going on...like I'm going to be traveling.

I'm with you, I learned all kinds of different page counts over the years by making mistakes.

I keep this site in my favorites.  https://www.twomorrows.com/alterego/media/Golden Age Index.pdf

 

[Randall Dowling]

On 5/25/2023 at 10:01 PM, jimjum12 said:

.... that is actually one of the more error prone assessments that is made in a resto check. I know people who submitted their own original books bought off the rack that came back as "trimmed", even though they weren't. It's not an exact science, as ALL comics are trimmed as part of the production process ... of course it's trimmed, it CAME that way form the production line. In the early days of slabbing, I was told by someone that they flagged a book as trimmed if it looked "too nice" ... but what about mint ? Some production defects will actually leave a book "looking" trimmed when it isn't. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) 

Agreed.  But after-printing micro-trimming has and does happen.  We all know the most infamous case of it.  But there are others also and the infamous individual is still out there.

[Nick Furious]

The passage of time has made me regret the two times that I did return a book to a dealer after slabbing.  The second time was a Hulk 181 5.0 that had small amount of color touch.  In retrospect, I would rather have the book than the $200 credit, equal to what I paid for it.  

[Sigur Ros]

On 5/23/2023 at 11:16 AM, O Doyle Rules said:

I purchased a Golden Age comic recently from an eBay seller which turned out to be incomplete (Missing centerfold). Prior to purchasing, the seller assured me the comic book was complete and that it also had no restoration. The comic was purchased for $400.00 plus sales tax. My intent when purchasing the comic was to send it off to CGC for grading. I did not inspect the comic or handle it since my intent was to get it graded and I did not want to cause any inadvertent damage to the comic. It was shipped off to CGC as received from the seller. I found out that the comic was not complete when the grading came in. They gave the comic a Qualified grade (green label) due to the centerfold missing. 

I contacted the seller and advised him of the situation. At first, he was responsive and ending up offering a partial refund of $100.00. I advised him that I did not feel that was adequate given the circumstances. I would have never purchased the comic had I known the comic was incomplete. I provided him some recent data from GPA which showed the comic would be valued way less than what I even paid for the raw copy. I responded back by asking for my money back plus the grading cost and I would return the graded comic to him. Or, I would accept a partial refund of $250.00 and keep the book. It was at this point, things went south. He basically said $100.00, take it or leave it - more so due to the length of time than anything else. He was informed approximately 60 days from the time I purchased the comic.

I contacted eBay and they advised their money back guarantee does not apply since it is over 30 days. They did feel my request to resolve the issue was more than reasonable and that the seller should provide the partial refund or take the comic back for a full refund. eBay indicated that the seller could have his account suspended and his ability to sell on eBay could be impacted if he does not resolve the issue. I advised seller of what eBay said and now he has gone completely silent - no response whatsoever. 

I followed up with eBay to report the seller's actions and they are reaching out to him directly. Any advice from this Forum? All thoughts and comments are greatly appreciated. Thank you! 

Did you pay with PayPal?

Had a similar eBay response once.  Someone was selling pre-order items...then by the time the items were to be released, he vanished with everyone's money.  Was long after the 30 days, so I contacted PayPal...they looked into it and refunded me 🤷

[Dick Pontoon]

@O Doyle Rules What is the comic book started all this ruckus?