Dear Marvel, You Suck. 2 2

[jsilverjanet]

never understood the fascination with this character

[D2]

Listen guys, I know you have been following Marvel since you were kids, but this isn't the Marvel of your past.

You need to get off Marvel.

Start reading something fresh.

Brubaker and Philips' body of work, Pulp, Criminal, Kill or Be Killed, The Fade Out...
Roberto Aguirre-Sacasa's Afterlife with Archie... Image comics has a huge list... DC's black label is great, Catwoman Lonely City, or the WW Dead Earth.

I'm not even saying boycott Marvel, but just support and read the stuff that's worth supporting.

[Dr. Balls]

On 6/8/2023 at 11:57 AM, jsilverjanet said:

never understood the fascination with this character

It's actually a very simple reason: people love that he takes matters into his own hands immediately, kills the perceived bad guys and continues to do so with great sacrifice to having a normal life. The same people that like the Punisher probably like films such as Boondock Saints, read Don Pendleton's Mack Bolan books, etc. Justice and revenge are fun to read about since normal people tend to either not experience it, or have to wait a very long time for it.

[jsilverjanet]

On 6/8/2023 at 1:05 PM, Dr. Balls said:

It's actually a very simple reason: people love that he takes matters into his own hands immediately, kills the perceived bad guys and continues to do so with great sacrifice to having a normal life. The same people that like the Punisher probably like films such as Boondock Saints, read Don Pendleton's Mack Bolan books, etc. Justice and revenge are fun to read about since normal people tend to either not experience it, or have to wait a very long time for it.

it's one thing to exact revenge on those who hurt you (took his family) but to continue to kill other bad guys? not my cup of tea

[Ed Hanes]

On 6/8/2023 at 5:52 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

So....is ASM 129 crashing yet?

I sold a ASM 129 (6.5) on MCS last June for 2K....and one recently sold on Comiclink for 1200...but to put it in proper perspective..I bought the 129 6.5 for 700 in summer 2019 ( and that was FMV at the time, maybe a little under)

Edited June 8, 2023 by Ed Hanes

[Dr. Balls]

On 6/8/2023 at 12:09 PM, jsilverjanet said:

it's one thing to exact revenge on those who hurt you (took his family) but to continue to kill other bad guys? not my cup of tea

I am on the other end of that spectrum. When you hear about nurses in the ER doing rape kits on children because they've been molested, I'm pretty much all about pointing Frank Castle in the direction of the perpetrators.

[jsilverjanet]

On 6/8/2023 at 1:13 PM, Dr. Balls said:

I am on the other end of that spectrum. When you hear about nurses in the ER doing rape kits on children because they've been molested, I'm pretty much all about pointing Frank Castle in the direction of the perpetrators.

wouldn't death be too easy of a punishment

[NP_Gresham]

The punisher has been done to death. 
How long could Peter Parker remain in high school or flunking college.

Time to move on already, try a new angle or something. Maybe not this, but TRY anything.

[Dr. Balls]

On 6/8/2023 at 12:20 PM, jsilverjanet said:

wouldn't death be too easy of a punishment

I think that's the dividing line over someone who likes the Punisher and who doesn't - it's a different perspective on how justice should be handled. I think there are two "right" answers: you are right that it would be too easy of a punishment, and I am right to say that the world is better off removing someone with that ability to harm children. Neither one of us are wrong - because we both want justice, which is kind of interesting that that philosophy trickles all the way down to which comic characters we prefer.

[jsilverjanet]

On 6/8/2023 at 1:26 PM, Dr. Balls said:

I think that's the dividing line over someone who likes the Punisher and who doesn't - it's a different perspective on how justice should be handled. I think there are two "right" answers: you are right that it would be too easy of a punishment, and I am right to say that the world is better off removing someone with that ability to harm children. Neither one of us are wrong - because we both want justice, which is kind of interesting that that philosophy trickles all the way down to which comic characters we prefer.

you are correct, that last one had nothing to do with the punisher or the reason why some my like him vs me

honestly many of these stories stopped working for me about 10 years ago. I still enjoyed some of the event books (house of M, civil war etc) but i don't think I've read a super hero book from the big 2 in quite some time. 

i have enjoyed some of the independent books because there is nothing holding them to 50-60 year history of the character. it seems to me that for some of these characters they've run out stories to tell.

 

[Dr. Balls]

On 6/8/2023 at 12:34 PM, jsilverjanet said:

it seems to me that for some of these characters they've run out stories to tell.

No kidding, right? I think that's why I keep re-reading old stuff.

[Artboy99]

interesting story.

One comment: further proof that Marvel has never worked to integrate the comics with TV/big screen properties.

They have a character called Ms. Marvel appearing in a big screen feature later this year but in the comics she is dead.

Now this Punisher thing, when he is to appear in the Daredevil TV show coming out.

Makes no sense at all to me and is a huge missed opportunity. They could have end credit scenes that say : read the next issue of the comics to see what happens next!

[Dr. Balls]

On 6/8/2023 at 1:03 PM, Artboy99 said:

Makes no sense at all to me and is a huge missed opportunity. They could have end credit scenes that say : read the next issue of the comics to see what happens next!

It is interesting you point that out - their ability to promote comics to the MCU audience has really been lackluster. I know there have been a few instances where they have zero issues, etc that tie into the movies, it seems that in this era with the ability to crossover much more easily, they would have taken advantage of that huge audience. Especially with the Marvel Unlimited subscription service.

[jsilverjanet]

On 6/8/2023 at 2:08 PM, Dr. Balls said:

It is interesting you point that out - their ability to promote comics to the MCU audience has really been lackluster. I know there have been a few instances where they have zero issues, etc that tie into the movies, it seems that in this era with the ability to crossover much more easily, they would have taken advantage of that huge audience. Especially with the Marvel Unlimited subscription service.

i think in the beginning they did try and launch comics along with the movies but they quickly found out that the majority of the audience from the movies is not interested in comics so many of those titles were cancelled etc

 

Edited June 8, 2023 by jsilverjanet

[lordbyroncomics]

On 6/7/2023 at 9:45 PM, thehumantorch said:

Marvel, what are you doing?  One of your most original and important characters.

I'd argue that he's not original- he's basically Mack Bolan, The Executioner. Romita Sr. confirmed that he was just a comics rip-off of the popular pulp character.

Not knocking The Punisher, btw- he was certainly hot in the 90s'- I'd argue as to how important he is. An aged Vietnam veteran who operates as a street level vigilante of gangsters occupies his own little niche in the overall Marvel tapestry, but he's not important in the way other characters are.

[lordbyroncomics]

Speaking of Marvel Sucks, I was just reading last night an interview with the owners of NY's JHU Comics store, and I found this both interesting and sad, though none of it should be surprising to us, the short-sightedness of the apparent House of Old Ideas:

 

Do you think comics is a less profitable business now than it was a decade ago?

Hill: Absolutely. The major publishers, Marvel in particular, used the pandemic as a way of getting our discounts cut to lower levels than they had been. The move to [Penguin] Random House caused us to lose six points of discount. Which, when Marvel’s your number one comic book publisher in sales, and you get six points cut off in the wake of a pandemic when you were closed for three months, suddenly creates all kinds of new challenges - because you have to go find a way to pay the electric bill and the rent every month.

Has Marvel been responsive when you or other shops have brought that up?

Hill: Not particularly. The general consensus is, as always, Marvel kind of doesn't care. They sell whatever they can, and they move on. The falseness of believing anyone is “partners” here-- they could give a mess, is what I’m going to say. They did what was best for Marvel. Marvel always does what’s best for Marvel. And it’s a shame that they dominate not just our business, but the media cultural landscape.

And it’s hard, because obviously there are lots of things about Marvel we love, like Jack Kirby, and Steve Ditko, and mess like that. But as a corporate entity, it's very painful sometimes, because they don't seem particularly interested in expanding their readership base. They seem interested in making $100 books to sell to 2,000 people, as opposed to making $4 comic books to sell to 500,000 people.

I don’t think Marvel’s #1 comic book sells 100,000 copies. They just don't seem interested in selling comic books. It seems like the corporate mindset over there is: stay below the radar. Make the margin. As a publishing company, I don’t think they are trying very hard to grow readership. I mean, Scholastic and VIZ sell more books than them. They put out the world's biggest movie, and they can't sell 100,000 copies of any comic book.

Let’s probe into that a little. Why is that? Why is Marvel’s market not expanding, when younger readers of manga and YA graphic novels certainly are?

Hill: Here’s the problem - I think that some of the best cartoonists out there see greener pastures in other places. So maybe [Marvel isn’t] getting the same caliber of creator that they used to. You get the [Jonathan] Hickmans and the Brian K. Vaughans that start over there, Mark Millar - all these guys start over there, do some fine work, and then they go, “I’m going to go over here and do my own properties where I’ll get my payday; I’ll get all the rights; I’ll get paid twice the money for selling a third of the copies.”

I feel like Marvel, as it exists now, is still operating as if [former chairman and CEO Ike] Perlmutter was the boss. They’re still operating under the policies that his regime instituted. And I think there's plenty of wonderful editors and creative people who work there who want to try to do things, but they're probably stymied by the corporate leadership, and all the other things that go on behind the scenes of a major entertainment company. And there's occasionally a miracle comic that comes out that's good, but anything that comes out that's good, they'll reprint as a trade once, and then it will go away for five years.

They don’t have a book department. DC Comics spent 20 years actively reprinting all their work, and creating a graphic novel market and a readership base for their collected stories. And Marvel treats their trade paperbacks as an extension of their comics. They print to order; maybe they’ll reprint it, maybe they won’t. It makes it very hard for new, young readers to come in and go, “Let me get all those Spider-Man comics.”

And all the graphic novel publishers out there - Fantagraphics, and Scholastic, and Random House itself, and Pantheon. You want to talk about graphic novels, over at Abrams, Charlie Kochman is paying attention to what’s working for them, and making sure it’s getting out. And as a result, we can have success. One of the problems with periodical comics now is that so many come out that it’s hard to pick a title and put money and time behind it. Whereas a great graphic novel, we can sell every week: we can have this in our store permanently as something we can push on people as long as it stays in print. And Marvel gave up on this stuff a long time ago.

[Dr. Balls]

On 6/8/2023 at 4:07 PM, lordbyroncomics said:

I'd argue that he's not original- he's basically Mack Bolan, The Executioner. Romita Sr. confirmed that he was just a comics rip-off of the popular pulp character.

Not knocking The Punisher, btw- he was certainly hot in the 90s'- I'd argue as to how important he is. An aged Vietnam veteran who operates as a street level vigilante of gangsters occupies his own little niche in the overall Marvel tapestry, but he's not important in the way other characters are.

I was a huuuuuuuge Mack Bolan reader when I was 10-13 years old (I still have about 60 of The Executioner books) and I easily transitioned into a Punisher fan when the limited series came out in 1985. Marvel worked The Executioner concept into comics and it really worked well. And you're right - The Punisher is not integral in Marvel's tapestry of characters - but he doesn't really have to be. He's like a warm vigilante blanket that shoots criminals - and I was always ok with that.

You can actually build compelling crime-centric stories around him if they worked hard enough at it. I mean, my bookshelf is filled with Mickey Spillane, Ed McBain and Don Pendelton - three eras of crime writers, it's not like criminal behavior wanes with the times - it's always there, and I'd be happy if The Punisher was right there with it. Leave out the Angel of Death Frankenstein stuff - just write good crime stories.

[Ken Aldred]

On 6/8/2023 at 8:35 AM, Beige said:

It would be brilliant if Marvel sold the IP for Frank Castle / Punisher to another company.  

 

More of this. Possibly with the company's newer horror angle.

[CGC Mike]

It would seem that politics can't be kept out of this thread.  I have cleaned it up for the last time.