Sept Heritage Signature Auction 3 3

[J.Sid]

On 8/25/2023 at 4:57 AM, Michael Browning said:

With results for these pages hitting high numbers, I don't think it matters much anymore whether Miller actually touched the paper or not. It used to be a thing, but nowadays, no so much, as evidenced by the super high prices pages from these issues have gotten.

Where is the “thumbs down” icon when you need it?!

it’s possible that pages Miller didn’t ever touch sell for lots of money. It’s also possible that certain pages Miller never touched sell for as much as ones that he did pencil. Hey, it only takes two bidders, right? But there are a LOT (probably well more than 50%, but that’s just my opinion) of Miller collectors who are only interested in pages Frank drew on. 
 

That said, it is also entirely possible that the old whales and Miller purists who fought it out in the 90s and 2000s are not the ones participating in Miller auctions these days, even the pages he drew. They either already have their great example, or they can’t fathom spending $80k for a page they remember seeing on a wall at comic-con 2003 priced for 3500.

[stinkininkin]

For what it's worth, I don't care if Miller literally touched the page or not. The Miller/Janson collaboration was comic book alchemy at it's finest and how the final page looks and speaks to me is all that I care about. There are a ton of pages that are pure Miller pencils with Janson inks that I don't give a rip about (I'm talking characters in costume and in action). Same goes for the later Janson led issues. But if it's the right page with the right aesthetic and the right story beat, I'll go after it aggressively regardless of who did what and my bidding will be consistent with the content. But of course, everyone is free to make their own value judgements as they see fit.

[jjonahjameson11]

On 8/26/2023 at 10:47 AM, stinkininkin said:

For what it's worth, I don't care if Miller literally touched the page or not. The Miller/Janson collaboration was comic book alchemy at it's finest and how the final page looks and speaks to me is all that I care about. There are a ton of pages that are pure Miller pencils with Janson inks that I don't give a rip about (I'm talking characters in costume and in action). Same goes for the later Janson led issues. But if it's the right page with the right aesthetic and the right story beat, I'll go after it aggressively regardless of who did what and my bidding will be consistent with the content. But of course, everyone is free to make their own value judgements as they see fit.

Yup. we agree to disagree and there's nothing wrong with that.

[alxjhnsn]

On 8/24/2023 at 11:20 AM, glendgold said:

For people who tracked the revelations over time better than I did - is this a page Miller touched or not? https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/story-page/frank-miller-and-klaus-janson-daredevil-190-story-page-32-original-art-marvel-1983-/a/7341-93080.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515 

Glen,

Here's the full story as I reconstructed it from many conversations posted to this board. I also have this as a MS Word file.
 

 

Edited August 26, 2023 by alxjhnsn
Fixed the link to go to the right comment and not the start of the thread. Added the link to the text as well.

[stinkininkin]

On 8/26/2023 at 8:05 AM, jjonahjameson11 said:

Yup. we agree to disagree and there's nothing wrong with that.

Agreed! Cheers to that!

[glendgold]

On 8/26/2023 at 9:10 AM, alxjhnsn said:

Glen,

Here's the full story as I reconstructed it from many conversations posted to this board. I also have this as a MS Word file.
 

 

Oh, thanks for that - and as you can see I ask this question occasionally. I can't remember the story, in part because I'm not a Miller guy. But I found the epic reconstruction of the process to be interesting. And FWIW, I'm pretty much in Scott's camp, with two asterisks - a) I think disclosure of what's actually on or not on the page being sold is beneficial. Might not affect the final bid, for reasons already mentioned, but knowing everything can only be good. And b) if I won this auction and one day the prelim to my page turned up, I'd want that, too.

[tth2]

On 8/27/2023 at 8:22 AM, glendgold said:

a) I think disclosure of what's actually on or not on the page being sold is beneficial. Might not affect the final bid, for reasons already mentioned, but knowing everything can only be good.

Why would any consignor or auction house ever want to do that?  At best, the price wouldn't be affected.  At worst, the price would be affected--a lot.  There is no situation in which people will bid more for a piece because Miller never actually touched the piece.

[alxjhnsn]

On 8/26/2023 at 7:22 PM, glendgold said:

Oh, thanks for that - and as you can see I ask this question occasionally. I can't remember the story, in part because I'm not a Miller guy. But I found the epic reconstruction of the process to be interesting. And FWIW, I'm pretty much in Scott's camp, with two asterisks - a) I think disclosure of what's actually on or not on the page being sold is beneficial. Might not affect the final bid, for reasons already mentioned, but knowing everything can only be good. And b) if I won this auction and one day the prelim to my page turned up, I'd want that, too.

 

On 8/26/2023 at 11:56 PM, tth2 said:

Why would any consignor or auction house ever want to do that?  At best, the price wouldn't be affected.  At worst, the price would be affected--a lot.  There is no situation in which people will bid more for a piece because Miller never actually touched the piece.

FWIW, I did offer the write-up to Heritage Auction so that they could correctly document what they are selling. They didn't reply; make of that what you will. (Note: I think I sent a link to the thread though I also have an MS Word file with it.)

[Bird]

item says page is from Miller layouts by Janson in description, so seems accurate right?

[J.Sid]

On 8/27/2023 at 4:50 PM, Bird said:

item says page is from Miller layouts by Janson in description, so seems accurate right?

Accurate, but deliberately vague.

[KirbyCollector]

Kubert Brave and the Bold Hawkman page for sale which sold only last November for a crazy price... someone is going to take a big loss here

[delekkerste]

On 8/26/2023 at 1:05 AM, J.Sid said:

Where is the “thumbs down” icon when you need it?!

it’s possible that pages Miller didn’t ever touch sell for lots of money. It’s also possible that certain pages Miller never touched sell for as much as ones that he did pencil. Hey, it only takes two bidders, right? But there are a LOT (probably well more than 50%, but that’s just my opinion) of Miller collectors who are only interested in pages Frank drew on. 

That said, it is also entirely possible that the old whales and Miller purists who fought it out in the 90s and 2000s are not the ones participating in Miller auctions these days, even the pages he drew. They either already have their great example, or they can’t fathom spending $80k for a page they remember seeing on a wall at comic-con 2003 priced for 3500.

On 8/26/2023 at 10:47 AM, stinkininkin said:

For what it's worth, I don't care if Miller literally touched the page or not. The Miller/Janson collaboration was comic book alchemy at it's finest and how the final page looks and speaks to me is all that I care about. There are a ton of pages that are pure Miller pencils with Janson inks that I don't give a rip about (I'm talking characters in costume and in action). Same goes for the later Janson led issues. But if it's the right page with the right aesthetic and the right story beat, I'll go after it aggressively regardless of who did what and my bidding will be consistent with the content. But of course, everyone is free to make their own value judgements as they see fit.

To me, Miller DD art is all desirable, but, to varying degrees. Of course, content is king, but, as a rule of thumb, I go by this hierarchy:

1. Daredevil #168-184, 191 - Miller with full creative control, both writing and penciling on the board. Also helps that the best story content is during this time

2. Daredevil #158-163, 165-167 - Miller with pencils on the board but not writing the book. Great that it's Miller pencils on the board, but, I feel like this is Miller Lite (tm) and not full-calorie Miller without him scripting

3. Daredevil #185-190 - Miller writing and detailed layouts on separate sheets but no pencils on the board. He didn't touch the boards, but, having seen the layouts and knowing they were blown up via lightbox, I feel like this is still very much Miller.

To me, this is the hierarchy and there should be discounts for buckets #2 and #3 all other things being equal. That said, over the years, the discounts have definitely been narrowing, to the point where sometimes it doesn't seem like there's any discount at all. And that's very likely attributable to newer collectors either not knowing and/or not caring about the distinctions laid out above. "Cool Miller DD page, bro" seems to be enough for most people these days.  

Edited August 30, 2023 by delekkerste

[J.Sid]

On 8/30/2023 at 6:29 AM, delekkerste said:

To me, Miller DD art is all desirable, but, to varying degrees. Of course, content is king, but, as a rule of thumb, I go by this hierarchy:

1. Daredevil #168-184, 191 - Miller with full creative control, both writing and penciling on the board. Also helps that the best story content is during this time

2. Daredevil #158-163, 165-167 - Miller with pencils on the board but not writing the book. Great that it's art on the board, but, I feel like this is Miller Lite (tm) and not full-calorie Miller without him scripting

3. Daredevil #185-190 - Miller writing and detailed layouts on separate sheets but no pencils on the board. He didn't touch the boards, but, having seen the layouts and knowing they were blown up via lightbox, I feel like this is still very much Miller.

To me, this is the hierarchy and there should be discounts for buckets #2 and #3 all other things being equal. That said, over the years, the discounts have definitely been narrowing, to the point where sometimes it doesn't seem like there's any discount at all. And that's very likely attributable to newer collectors either not knowing and/or not caring about the distinctions laid out above. "Cool Miller DD page, bro" seems to be enough for most people these days.  

I agree with what's said about tiers 2-3 in regards to action pages... but I say let's add yet another asterisk and flip that order for story pages.  

(100% agree with your statement for #1)

[Michael Browning]

$9500 this morning, $20,000 this afternoon - with 15 days to go. Someone wants that page with the same passion that the old guys want “pure” Miller DD pages.

[J.Sid]

On 8/30/2023 at 12:08 PM, Michael Browning said:

$9500 this morning, $20,000 this afternoon - with 15 days to go. Someone wants that page with the same passion that the old guys want “pure” Miller DD pages.

 

Miller-drawn Elektra pages with Ninjas and swords go for much, much more than this (exponentially more)

[Michael Browning]

On 8/30/2023 at 4:32 PM, J.Sid said:

 

Miller-drawn Elektra pages with Ninjas and swords go for much, much more than this (exponentially more)

15 days to go. The auction ain't over yet. That page may sell lower than a "pure" Miller page, but I just don't believe that that matters to most of the Miller DD collectors these days like it did five years ago.

[batman_fan]

Miller artwork 

Yeah, I said it out loud

[tth2]

On 8/31/2023 at 6:49 AM, Michael Browning said:

15 days to go. The auction ain't over yet. That page may sell lower than a "pure" Miller page, but I just don't believe that that matters to most of the Miller DD collectors these days like it did five years ago.

They may not even be aware.  

[delekkerste]

On 8/31/2023 at 12:21 AM, tth2 said:

They may not even be aware.  

Philistines!

[buttock]

On 8/30/2023 at 4:49 PM, Michael Browning said:

15 days to go. The auction ain't over yet. That page may sell lower than a "pure" Miller page, but I just don't believe that that matters to most of the Miller DD collectors these days like it did five years ago.

Does it really matter?  I know the underlying rationale, but does it really matter?  You're getting the published image.  Would you rather have that or the original Miller pencils?