When You Unexpectedly Find a Grail or Other Book You've Always Wanted in a Shop 3 3

[Cat]

On 8/27/2023 at 1:59 AM, october said:

Right. People who take the time and effort to understand comics and the back issue market don't deserve to be compensated for their knowledge. 

Collectibles is the only market segment where people routinely expect someone to give away their hard work for free. It's ridiculous .

I've got to think about this point. Point taken, but I need to ruminate on it. 

[Nick Furious]

On 8/27/2023 at 8:08 AM, Cat said:

I've got to think about this point. Point taken, but I need to ruminate on it. 

I wouldn't think on it too long because it couldn't be further from the truth.  Be on the lookout for the next week and see how many people you spot giving away their expertise for free.  Anyone from Doctors, Lawyers and Teachers to Plumbers, Electricians to Handymen to a Mechanic helping someone on the side of the road.  Even a moral salesman will give away their expertise to point someone in the right direction rather than try to make money on something that's not a good solution for the problem.  But it's a strawman argument.  No one said the buyer had an obligation to surrender all profit by educating the seller on FMV.  There's a big spread between $2 and FMV.  You buy the book, do a full evaluation and research and then return to the store with additional money.  Maybe it's 25% of retailers FMV, some amount that thrills them and leaves you with more than enough to compensate you for your efforts and expertise.  Then, since you are now an asset to them, you give them your phone number and ask that you be their first contact when they get more comic books or other collectibles.  But the less debatable point was really on the subject of potentially taking a payout for a lost book without informing the payer that a wrap was missing.  You do have an obligation there to be honest about the condition of the book.  Even to this day the book has a label on it that says the missing wrap does not affect the story, which is incorrect.  

[Cat]

On 8/28/2023 at 12:07 AM, Nick Furious said:

I wouldn't think on it too long because it couldn't be further from the truth.  Be on the lookout for the next week and see how many people you spot giving away their expertise for free.  Anyone from Doctors, Lawyers and Teachers to Plumbers, Electricians to Handymen to a Mechanic helping someone on the side of the road.  Even a moral salesman will give away their expertise to point someone in the right direction rather than try to make money on something that's not a good solution for the problem.  But it's a strawman argument.  No one said the buyer had an obligation to surrender all profit by educating the seller on FMV.  There's a big spread between $2 and FMV.  You buy the book, do a full evaluation and research and then return to the store with additional money.  Maybe it's 25% of retailers FMV, some amount that thrills them and leaves you with more than enough to compensate you for your efforts and expertise.  Then, since you are now an asset to them, you give them your phone number and ask that you be their first contact when they get more comic books or other collectibles.  But the less debatable point was really on the subject of potentially taking a payout for a lost book without informing the payer that a wrap was missing.  You do have an obligation there to be honest about the condition of the book.  Even to this day the book has a label on it that says the missing wrap does not affect the story, which is incorrect.  

This has sold me. I'd forgot that he was still willing to try and marry the pages and push it past a buyer/CGC. No excuse for that whatsoever. 

 

[october]

On 8/27/2023 at 9:07 AM, Nick Furious said:

You buy the book, do a full evaluation and research and then return to the store with additional money.  Maybe it's 25% of retailers FMV, some amount that thrills them and leaves you with more than enough to compensate you for your efforts and expertise.  Then, since you are now an asset to them, you give them your phone number and ask that you be their first contact when they get more comic books or other collectibles. 

Have you ever actually done this? I have multiple times, and it's often not received the way you think it would be. 

I (of course) agree that marrying pages and trying to pass it off is 100% not ok. 

[october]

On 8/27/2023 at 9:07 AM, Nick Furious said:

I wouldn't think on it too long because it couldn't be further from the truth.  Be on the lookout for the next week and see how many people you spot giving away their expertise for free.  Anyone from Doctors, Lawyers and Teachers to Plumbers, Electricians to Handymen to a Mechanic helping someone on the side of the road. 

I said routinely expected to give away their expertise for free. Plenty of the above give their time and knowledge away of their own volition and that's great, but do they get the same raft of s&%t as collectible dealers if they don't do it constantly? Is a doctor a crook if he sends a bill? Is lawyer a scumbag if he doesn't do all pro bono work? I help people all the time with comic questions and expect nothing in return, but using that same knowledge to generate a payday is scummy if the profit is "too much". I just don't buy it.

The store's job is to price it, the buyer's job is to buy it. The end. If this was a person at a garage sale who got a box of comics from the basement because you asked, or someone coming to you for pricing advice, that would be different, but this was a store whose literal job is to price antiques. If they shouldn't know better, who should? Why does their responsibility, their job, and the burden of their work transfer to the buyer? I don't hear that standard, that expectation, anywhere else. 

[Ryan.]

On 8/27/2023 at 10:18 AM, october said:

 it's often not received the way you think it would be. 

Bingo. No good deed goes unpunished. 

[Robot Man]

On 8/27/2023 at 7:07 AM, Nick Furious said:

I wouldn't think on it too long because it couldn't be further from the truth.  Be on the lookout for the next week and see how many people you spot giving away their expertise for free.  Anyone from Doctors, Lawyers and Teachers to Plumbers, Electricians to Handymen to a Mechanic helping someone on the side of the road.  Even a moral salesman will give away their expertise to point someone in the right direction rather than try to make money on something that's not a good solution for the problem.  But it's a strawman argument.  No one said the buyer had an obligation to surrender all profit by educating the seller on FMV.  There's a big spread between $2 and FMV.  You buy the book, do a full evaluation and research and then return to the store with additional money.  Maybe it's 25% of retailers FMV, some amount that thrills them and leaves you with more than enough to compensate you for your efforts and expertise.  Then, since you are now an asset to them, you give them your phone number and ask that you be their first contact when they get more comic books or other collectibles.  But the less debatable point was really on the subject of potentially taking a payout for a lost book without informing the payer that a wrap was missing.  You do have an obligation there to be honest about the condition of the book.  Even to this day the book has a label on it that says the missing wrap does not affect the story, which is incorrect.  

There is a fine line between “honesty” and stupidly.

I have had many opportunities to by collections of comics and other collectibles. The owner asked me what the value was. I worked for in some times many hours to give them an accurate appraisal and made them a fair offer only to be turned down. The seller just uses it as a starting point to the next buyer. Is my time and expertise worth nothing? Of course not. There are many actual appraisers who actually charge for their time and education.

Does it always pay to be “forth coming”? I once bought a very valuble sports photograph from a local flea market seller for a very inexpensive price. I knew what it was and he obviously didn’t nor did he seem to care. I sent it to auction and it sold for huge money. I saw the seller a few months later and handed him $500. cash. He was blown away and asked me why. I just told him I had purchased something from him that did real well at auction. He asked me what it was and what I got for it. I refused to answer and just told him to enjoy his windfall. The result? Now he won’t sell to me. So much for “honesty”…

Some times it does pay off. There are several dealers and estate sale owners who give me first shot at stuff because they know and trust me. They know I will be fair and pay accordingly in cash. We have a good relationship.

At a show dealing with a total stranger, I will either just pay their asking price or make a counter offer if we are close. Zero guilt on my part no matter what the item or value.

I have been doing this for 50 years. Great deals are fewer and fewer these days. For every home run there are 50 strikeouts.

[Nick Furious]

On 8/27/2023 at 9:18 AM, october said:

Have you ever actually done this? I have multiple times, and it's often not received the way you think it would be.

I have not had that specific opportunity but if you go out of your way to do something generous, how they respond is on them, not on you.  I have pulled a book from a dealer's discount box and said that I would like to buy it, but it probably didn't belong in the discount box.  He agreed and we worked out a price that was still well below FMV.  In 2021 right before the boom I made a couple of purchases that quickly doubled or tripled in value.  When I sold the books, I reached out to both of the small-time dealers and offered them an additional $100 to take the sting off.  One was struggling personally and gratefully accepted.  The other said he had to decline because he had used the money to upgrade the book and was doing quite well with his upgraded purchase.   A more subtle way to return some of an extra-ordinary gain is just to make a point to give them more business...above and beyond what you otherwise would have purchased from them.  

[Nick Furious]

On 8/27/2023 at 10:08 AM, Robot Man said:

Does it always pay to be “forth coming”? I once bought a very valuble sports photograph from a local flea market seller for a very inexpensive price. I knew what it was and he obviously didn’t nor did he seem to care. I sent it to auction and it sold for huge money. I saw the seller a few months later and handed him $500. cash. He was blown away and asked me why. I just told him I had purchased something from him that did real well at auction. He asked me what it was and what I got for it. I refused to answer and just told him to enjoy his windfall. The result? Now he won’t sell to me. So much for “honesty”…

I guess his plan is to only sell to people who won't share a windfall with him. There will be people like that, people who's personality defects always trip them up and they live unhappy, resentful lives.  In fact I would say that it's common enough int the collectibles industry to have become an accepted stereotype.  But if you go out of your way to be fair and just, there will also be people who will see your example and it will make them want to be a better person for having seen it.  

Edited August 27, 2023 by Nick Furious

[Robot Man]

On 8/27/2023 at 8:13 AM, Nick Furious said:

I have not had that specific opportunity but if you go out of your way to do something generous, how they respond is on them, not on you.  I have pulled a book from a dealer's discount box and said that I would like to buy it, but it probably didn't belong in the discount box.  He agreed and we worked out a price that was still well below FMV.  In 2021 right before the boom I made a couple of purchases that quickly doubled or tripled in value.  When I sold the books, I reached out to both of the small-time dealers and offered them an additional $100 to take the sting off.  One was struggling personally and gratefully accepted.  The other said he had to decline because he had used the money to upgrade the book and was doing quite well with his upgraded purchase.   A more subtle way to return some of an extra-ordinary gain is just to make a point to give them more business...above and beyond what you otherwise would have purchased from them.  

As a part time con dealer, I have many boxes of half price average SA/BA books that I have scored for many years out “in the wild”. At the time I graded them and priced them at guide. Because I got them right, I pass it on and rarely mark them up. There are a few that slip through the cracks when a new movie comes out. The smart flipper kids know and pull those out. I gulp a little but honor my mistakes. I do draw the line though when I am asked for a lower price. At that point I take the book back and it isn’t for sale. When you are blessed with a deal, take it and walk away happy…

[Robot Man]

On 8/27/2023 at 8:28 AM, Nick Furious said:

I guess his plan is to only sell to people who won't share a windfall with him. There will be people like that, people who's personality defects always trip them up and they live unhappy, resentful lives.  But if you go out of your way to be fair and just, there will also be people who will see your example and it will make them want to be a better person for having seen it.  

I could care less how other people live their lives or what their “moral compass” is. I know the difference between right and wrong. I’m not holding a gun to their head. I’m not stealing. I pay them what they want and move on. I sleep like a baby…

[Nick Furious]

On 8/27/2023 at 10:31 AM, Robot Man said:

As a part time con dealer, I have many boxes of half price average SA/BA books that I have scored for many years out “in the wild”. At the time I graded them and priced them at guide. Because I got them right, I pass it on and rarely mark them up. There are a few that slip through the cracks when a new movie comes out. The smart flipper kids know and pull those out. I gulp a little but honor my mistakes. I do draw the line though when I am asked for a lower price. At that point I take the book back and it isn’t for sale. When you are blessed with a deal, take it and walk away happy…

I would say that you handle it exactly right.  Once they reopen negotiations with an offer, you have every right to take the original offer off the table.  True in all business.  

[GermanFan]

On 8/26/2023 at 5:59 PM, october said:

Right. People who take the time and effort to understand comics and the back issue market don't deserve to be compensated for their knowledge. 

Collectibles is the only market segment where people routinely expect someone to give away their hard work for free. It's ridiculous .

All markets are made either from information disparity or from future perceptions. I got so many steals eg an Archie 50 for 1$ a couple of years ago. If the seller is too lazy to google "Archie 50" its not my fault.

[JTD]

Traveled to Dallas for a wedding in 1985, I was 16…picked this up at Lone Star Comics for $32, now it’s My Comic Shop…they had it marked as fn+…

 

Edited August 27, 2023 by JTD

[KCOComics]

On 8/27/2023 at 11:13 AM, Nick Furious said:

I have not had that specific opportunity but if you go out of your way to do something generous, how they respond is on them, not on you.  I have pulled a book from a dealer's discount box and said that I would like to buy it, but it probably didn't belong in the discount box.  He agreed and we worked out a price that was still well below FMV.  In 2021 right before the boom I made a couple of purchases that quickly doubled or tripled in value.  When I sold the books, I reached out to both of the small-time dealers and offered them an additional $100 to take the sting off.  One was struggling personally and gratefully accepted.  The other said he had to decline because he had used the money to upgrade the book and was doing quite well with his upgraded purchase.   A more subtle way to return some of an extra-ordinary gain is just to make a point to give them more business...above and beyond what you otherwise would have purchased from them.  

Isn't that a little extreme? You paid FMV for a comic, the price went up and you paid back the seller?  If you felt guilty you could have taken your proceeds and bought more comics from them. But you paid what was fair and reasonable at the time. 

 

As for the question at hand, I tend to agree with October and Robotman.  A store that should know how to price collectibles priced the books and he paid what was asked. 

If he had gone to someone's house and said "this collection is worth $100", knowing there was a ASM1, that would be awful. But he wasn't asked to price the books. The store was. And he paid what was asked. 

 

To tell a quick story - I had a coworker who discovered her father's old comics after he passed. She responded to a Craigslist Ad of someone who wanted to buy comics. He came over and offered her $50 for some old beat up GA comics. But something felt off, so she declined. Then he offered her $200... After a few weeks of silence he followed up and offered her $1,000.  

A friend of mine told her I collected comics and she contacted me for an honest opinion. By that time she had done her research and knew one comic was special and she put it aside (all be it, in zip lock bags).  I looked through all the comics...beaten up early Supermans, nothing crazy.  And I said, "look, if he's going to give you a $1k for these take it". Then she said "how about this" and she took out an All American 61. 

So I worked hard on this.. I reached out to some board members. Graded it. Counted pages, checked for trimming or anything crazy... And I gave her two prices. What I could pay and a range it could reasonably go for at auction. I even offered to do all the work.. have it graded, submit it for auction and give her the money minus only my cost, if I like pie wanted. 

She didn't buy it from me, though as far as I know she still has it...and I keep hoping one day I'll get an email telling me to come by and make another offer.  Although that book hasn't gotten any cheaper since she shot down my first offer. 

 

[shadroch]

I hope the guy I sold my house in Flushing gets a guilty conscience when he sells. He only paid $300K for a house now worth triple. 

I've never heard anything so ridiculous. In thousands of transactions, I've never had someone come up and give me a share of the profits they made from something I sold them. 

[Flanders82]

On 8/27/2023 at 6:20 PM, shadroch said:

I've never had someone come up and give me a share of the profits they made from something I sold them. 

Maybe you should try selling to @Nick Furious sometime. 

[Nick Furious]

On 8/27/2023 at 8:20 PM, shadroch said:

I hope the guy I sold my house in Flushing gets a guilty conscience when he sells. He only paid $300K for a house now worth triple. 

I've never heard anything so ridiculous. In thousands of transactions, I've never had someone come up and give me a share of the profits they made from something I sold them. 

 

On 8/27/2023 at 9:04 PM, Flanders82 said:

Maybe you should try selling to @Nick Furious sometime. 

Well, I hope it doesn't make me sound like a bad person, lol.  There are some details that makes the situations unusual.  The books tripled in value within months, not years.  This inspired me to quickly "flip" them even though I had intended to keep them long term.  One seller, I knew through secondhand information, was not in a great financial position.  The other seller, based on the book and the location it shipped from, I had convinced myself might be a college student.  It was a unique timing/situation where I felt compelled to do something gracious for the people I had benefited from.  Not trying to sound overly magnanimous.  But it feels strange to be offering a defense.  I hope that random acts of kindness are not entirely frowned upon by the CGC community.  

Edited August 28, 2023 by Nick Furious

[shadroch]

Ahh, the old "random act of kindness " trope.

[Beastfeast]

This thread has low ceilings and high horses.