What the Heck Happened to this Superman #12? 2 2

[nearmint]

When manipulation causes a downgrade...

 

Edited September 17, 2023 by nearmint

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

Happened to me on a book. I had no idea until other boardies pointed it out

[Telegan]

Now, that's just greedy.  Comic grading's version of Icarus flying too close to the sun.  If I ever had a book that costly and with that high a grade, I doubt I'd have it touched.  That being said, this person did almost make most of his money back, I guess... almost.

That being said, I was looking at the grader notes on them and noticed the 8.5 reincarnation got knocked for spine and staple issues that I don't believe the 9.2 did.  The 8.5 on the lower staple seems to show issues that the 9.2 doesn't, but it's hard to tell for sure.  I'm wondering if the cleaning and possible pressing caused those issues or not.

Flippin' ain't easy.

[LDarkseid1]

I don’t think the book “looks better” as the YouTuber implies. Sure the slight shadow is gone, but the colors on the cover are considerably faded from the 9.2 to 8.5, most especially in the Superman logo. I don’t blame someone for taking a shot like they did though. I mean sometimes you take a shot, just didn’t pan out.

[nearmint]

On 9/16/2023 at 7:19 PM, LDarkseid1 said:

but the colors on the cover are considerably faded from the 9.2 to 8.5, most especially in the Superman logo. 

I suspect the color variation is just scanner settings.  

[Dr. Love]

Could be anybody, Jeff, but my first thought was Ritter.  He has been known to buy big grade books, do his thing, and roll the dice on a submit.  Ask him when you see him next. If he hesitates, bingo!

[nearmint]

On 9/16/2023 at 7:47 PM, Dr. Love said:

Could be anybody, Jeff, but my first thought was Ritter.  He has been known to buy big grade books, do his thing, and roll the dice on a submit.  Ask him when you see him next. If he hesitates, bingo!

I'm less interested in the who than the how.  I've always been under the impression that eliminating a dust shadow required a wet cleaning.  If that's the case, how did CGC miss it?  Or is there a new method I haven't heard about?

[LDarkseid1]

On 9/16/2023 at 7:23 PM, nearmint said:

I suspect the color variation is just scanner settings.  

I was thinking that at first, but I don’t know. That looks considerably faded to be a scanner thing. I mean definitely possible, but if that’s the case auction house took a horrible photo lol.

[Telegan]

On 9/16/2023 at 10:04 PM, nearmint said:

I'm less interested in the who than the how.  I've always been under the impression that eliminating a dust shadow required a wet cleaning.  If that's the case, how did CGC miss it?  Or is there a new method I haven't heard about?

I've seen instances where dust shadows were removed from books and still come back with a blue label - there's a video of a modern comic originally graded as a 9.6 with a dust shadow on it which gets removed using water (or maybe peroxide) and the blue light treatment, pressed, and then sent off to get re-graded.  It comes back with a 9.8 blue label.  I've also seen/read several people claim the process to remove dirt/dust shadows can cause the purple label.  It may be a situation of, if they catch it, they'll bust you for it.  How they catch it, I don't know.

[AJD]

On 9/17/2023 at 11:18 AM, Telegan said:

That being said, I was looking at the grader notes on them and noticed the 8.5 reincarnation got knocked for spine and staple issues that I don't believe the 9.2 did.  The 8.5 on the lower staple seems to show issues that the 9.2 doesn't, but it's hard to tell for sure.  I'm wondering if the cleaning and possible pressing caused those issues or not.

For reference

9.2: light cover tanning, light shadow full right of front cover, very light crease right bottom of front cover

8.5: crease right bottom of front cover, tanning interior cover, small spine stress lines, very light staple tears

[buttock]

On 9/16/2023 at 9:04 PM, nearmint said:

I'm less interested in the who than the how.  I've always been under the impression that eliminating a dust shadow required a wet cleaning.  If that's the case, how did CGC miss it?  Or is there a new method I haven't heard about?

There is a fairly large cadre of people out there experimenting with stain removal.  There's even a book you can get.  From what I understand it doesn't work nearly as well on older books (especially big GA books), so if someone was trying it on a book like this you could see how you might end up worse off.  But if you're buying bronze/copper stuff...

[D84]

This gonna make me sound like a , but good. I'm sick of people trying squeeze every dime out of these rare books. Their avarice caused this, so I have no sympathy.

Looks like prime example of they  around and found out.

[october]

On 9/17/2023 at 6:00 AM, buttock said:

There is a fairly large cadre of people out there experimenting with stain removal.  There's even a book you can get.  From what I understand it doesn't work nearly as well on older books (especially big GA books), so if someone was trying it on a book like this you could see how you might end up worse off.  But if you're buying bronze/copper stuff...

Cover whitening with peroxide baths is also a thing. 

There's a reason I am more comfortable buying raw books at this point. If they are manipulated, at least I can reliably spot it. Too many squashed spines and other unfortunate stuff hiding behind slab plastic. 

[october]

On 9/16/2023 at 9:47 PM, Dr. Love said:

Could be anybody, Jeff, but my first thought was Ritter.  He has been known to buy big grade books, do his thing, and roll the dice on a submit.  Ask him when you see him next. If he hesitates, bingo!

Last time I saw him at a show, he had a raw Prize I'd been after marked a 5.5. Took about five seconds on my phone to find the significantly lower grade slab he had cracked it out of. 

Not someone I feel at all comfortable buying from. 

[buttock]

On 9/17/2023 at 8:34 AM, october said:

Cover whitening with peroxide baths is also a thing. 

There's a reason I am more comfortable buying raw books at this point. If they are manipulated, at least I can reliably spot it. Too many squashed spines and other unfortunate stuff hiding behind slab plastic. 

Peroxide, distilled water, or blue LED. There are at least 2 proprietary cleaning mixes also. 

[nearmint]

On 9/17/2023 at 7:39 AM, october said:

Last time I saw him at a show, he had a raw Prize I'd been after marked a 5.5. Took about five seconds on my phone to find the significantly lower grade slab he had cracked it out of. 

Not someone I feel at all comfortable buying from. 

That's really disappointing to hear.

[nearmint]

On 9/17/2023 at 8:34 AM, buttock said:

Peroxide, distilled water, or blue LED. There are at least 2 proprietary cleaning mixes also. 

These are procedures that if caught by CGC, would result in a purple label, correct?  

[buttock]

On 9/17/2023 at 10:43 AM, nearmint said:

These are procedures that if caught by CGC, would result in a purple label, correct?  

Not really.  The telltale signs of a cleaning aren't typically seen.  Most people are getting blue labels.  Some people are taking it too far and ending up with purple labels, but those are pretty egregious examples where the books don't look natural.  It's not an aqueous/solvent bath like cleaning has been historically.  You'd be really surprised by what people are doing.  That being said, it's out there in the wide open for anyone to find or see.  

[jimbo_7071]

On 9/17/2023 at 12:43 PM, nearmint said:

These are procedures that if caught by CGC, would result in a purple label, correct?  

CGC needs to get better at catching them—and fast!

[nearmint]

On 9/17/2023 at 9:49 AM, buttock said:

Not really.  The telltale signs of a cleaning aren't typically seen.  Most people are getting blue labels.  Some people are taking it too far and ending up with purple labels, but those are pretty egregious examples where the books don't look natural.  It's not an aqueous/solvent bath like cleaning has been historically.  You'd be really surprised by what people are doing.  That being said, it's out there in the wide open for anyone to find or see.  

I haven't kept up on all this.  I need to educate myself.