What are the top 5 Pedigree’s in your opinion? 7 7

[lou_fine]

On 10/19/2023 at 7:23 AM, sfcityduck said:

But way back when Chuck bought those comics he was arguably taking a bit of a risk in Denver.

Well, all I can say is that if you think paying 10 cents per copy for pristine minty fresh looking GA books from 35+ years ago back in the latter part of the 70's was taking a risk, then the fact that I was paying 5 cents for fugly low grade SA beaters in the mid-60's from just a couple years ago like X-Men 1 and Daredevil 1 north of the 49th must have been absolutely suicidal.   

Edited October 20, 2023 by lou_fine

[Robot Man]

I have always liked pedigree books for a few reasons. Obviously, condition and in many cases consecutive issues.

The stories are also interesting. Both the people who put them together and the stories of the find.

I kind of group them into two categories. The innocent, happy kind such as Larson, Billy Wright and others. And the darker, weirder, sometimes tragic ones. Mile High, Okajima, Green River and a few others.

The fact that most have survived the ravages of time is a bit amazing in it’s self.

All are part of the history of this hobby. Good or bad. I have at least a few of most of them because of this. 

[sfcityduck]

On 10/19/2023 at 7:35 AM, Superman2006 said:

For what he paid for the books, I don't think that I would say that Chuck was "arguably taking a bit of a risk in Denver" given his story about having sold $1,800 in comics at a convention in 1972, and I doubt the books he sold then were anywhere near the quality or quantity of the Edgar Church books (more info in the link below)

https://www.milehighcomics.com/tales/cbg12.html

I know the stories. But back then it was not anywhere near as established as today.  If I was the OO, I would have felt ripped off. But didn't they name the price?

Back then there were a lot of "stories" about "bargains" people got.  Economists would call it trading on information disparities. And given the infancy of the market, it is hard for me to call it criminal, but greedy absolutely!

Where it begins to get legally dicey is when we hear stories of how people raided other people's garbage cans to "save" comics that otherwise were headed to the trash heap. That's theft. And when what was being raided was not a garbage can but someone's garage (as happened with one pedigree) there's no way that is a misunderstanding of the law (which is not a defense but at least has moral implications). There is no doubt that some comic book dealers back in those days were turning a blind eye and acting as fences of stolen property. At least Chuck engaged in an arms length transaction and was buying comics that other comic dealers took a pass on. Which evidences that there was some risk in his locality. After all, back then a comic store was a new thing (my guess is many states didn't have one yet) and book stores were still selling old comics below cover price. 

Edited October 19, 2023 by sfcityduck

[sfcityduck]

On 10/19/2023 at 7:46 AM, Robot Man said:

 

I kind of group them into two categories. The innocent, happy kind such as Larson, Billy Wright and others. And the darker, weirder, sometimes tragic ones. Mile High, Okajima, Green River and a few others.

 

Love that distinction. There's also ones like Crippen, which sort of fall into both categories. The 11,000 happy ones sold by the OO, and the 2,000 weirder ones which were stolen and bought by dealers from the thieves. I'm pretty sure that once the theft was discovered, no one returned their "D copies" back to the OOs. I have no knowledge as to whether anyone fingered the thieves.

[Robot Man]

On 10/19/2023 at 8:24 AM, sfcityduck said:

Love that distinction. There's also ones like Crippen, which sort of fall into both categories. The 11,000 happy ones sold by the OO, and the 2,000 weirder ones which were stolen and bought by dealers from the thieves. I'm pretty sure that once the theft was discovered, no one returned their "D copies" back to the OOs. I have no knowledge as to whether anyone fingered the thieves.

I think they got away with the theft.

Another weird one was the Bethlehem collection. The owner was a hoarder and apparently died on the floor in his hoard. The buyer supposedly had to step over the taped figure of the owner on the floor to finish off buying the collection. Now that is weird and creepy. 

[Robot Man]

On 10/19/2023 at 8:05 AM, sfcityduck said:

I know the stories. But back then it was not anywhere near as established as today.  If I was the OO, I would have felt ripped off. But didn't they name the price?

Back then there were a lot of "stories" about "bargains" people got.  Economists would call it trading on information disparities. And given the infancy of the market, it is hard for me to call it criminal, but greedy absolutely!

Where it begins to get legally dicey is when we hear stories of how people raided other people's garbage cans to "save" comics that otherwise were headed to the trash heap. That's theft. And when what was being raided was not a garbage can but someone's garage (as happened with one pedigree) there's no way that is a misunderstanding of the law (which is not a defense but at least has moral implications). There is no doubt that some comic book dealers back in those days were turning a blind eye and acting as fences of stolen property. At least Chuck engaged in an arms length transaction and was buying comics that other comic dealers took a pass on. Which evidences that there was some risk in his locality. After all, back then a comic store was a new thing (my guess is many states didn't have one yet) and book stores were still selling old comics below cover price. 

I must be a master criminal or just plain crazy. Not only have I paid full asking prices (as low as 10 cents each), I have dumpster and trash can dived, crawled through dark, hot attics and cold basements. Stepped over rat poop and even bought a load out of an unplugged refrigerator in a garage in a very part of town. Oh, and there was that dump collection I rescued from the shredder…

Oh, and as a kid, my brother and I would walk neighbor hoods with our little red wagon and ringing doorbells asking to buy comics. We often actually got them for FREE.

OK, lock me up…

[Superman2006]

On 10/19/2023 at 11:05 AM, sfcityduck said:

 that other comic dealers took a pass on. Which evidences that there was some risk in his locality.

I would think that once Chuck saw the collection, that given his experience / skills in selling comic books (as evidenced by his comments about grossing $1,800 in sales at a convention 5 years prior) he had to have known there wasn't any risk in paying the Church family's asking price.  Didn't he get the funding to actually pay for the entire collection by pre-selling a small number of the books to some more well-funded dealer(s)? (Maybe I got that wrong; just going off of my memory) If so, then that basically meant he was getting the rest of the collection for free.

As to other dealers taking a pass, I don't think that any one of them with anywhere near the same experience / skill of Chuck would have balked at paying cover price on that collection IF they had taken the time to go see the collection themselves. I don't view the other dealers missed opportunity as evidence that Chuck was "arguably taking a bit of a risk in Denver."

If you change "a bit of risk" to "a tiny bit of risk" then I could agree, as it wasn't totally risk free (e.g. his car / truck with the books could have started on fire, or something when transporting the books lol).

[lou_fine]

On 10/19/2023 at 8:51 AM, Superman2006 said:

Didn't he get the funding to actually pay for the entire collection by pre-selling a small number of the books to some more well-funded dealer(s)? (Maybe I got that wrong; just going off of my memory) If so, then that basically meant he was getting the rest of the collection for free.

Yes, if the stories are indeed, he got the $2,000 to pay for the collection from Burrell Rowe (i.e a Texas dealer) on the condition that Burrell got to pick the first $10,000 worth of books based upon Overstreet valuations at the time.  

 

On 10/19/2023 at 8:51 AM, Superman2006 said:

I don't think that any one of them with anywhere near the same experience / skill of Chuck would have balked at paying cover price on that collection IF they had taken the time to go see the collection themselves.

Bingo..................that's it exactly, as nobody else except Chuckles was willing to drive all the way out there to take a look at the collection thinking it would be nothing more than another wild goose chase.    

[Robot Man]

I would have quickly realized the “risk” was minimal back then. But, like Chuck, having that much cash at that time might have prohibited me from buying the collection. That was a LOT of money then. 

[Superman2006]

On 10/19/2023 at 12:16 PM, Robot Man said:

I would have quickly realized the “risk” was minimal back then. But, like Chuck, having that much cash at that time might have prohibited me from buying the collection. That was a LOT of money then. 

True, but well worth the "risk" if you're a dealer and you've had experience grossing roughly the total cost of the collection in a single weekend about 5 years prior.

Chuck's biggest risk at the time had to have been the risk that another dealer with a clue and money in the bank would have taken the time to view and acquire the collection while he was arranging funding.

[Sauce Dog]

On 10/19/2023 at 10:27 AM, sfcityduck said:

Well … yes there is an association but it is of a false accusation and the resulting harm to the seller that led to him being forced to sell the books. It’s on the spectrum of tragedy for sellers being victimized that museums are struggling with like Jews having to sell their paintings to escape Germany. Not a good association.

And? It's still associated with a very famous serial killer case. That is all that matters in the greater pop culture scene. I would say ALL crime adjacent memorabilia do not have 'good association' but that is moot to those collecting such things (letters, evidence, signatures etc). I'm just saying this alone makes the pedigree stand out compared to other ones that have a stock 'comic collector' back story to them - that's all, not doing any moralizing on it one way or another.

Edited October 19, 2023 by Sauce Dog

[Robot Man]

A point to be made out about Pedigrees. Those who amassed sometimes very large amounts were readers not really “collectors”. Those of us who seek out certain back issues and pay more than cover price are “collectors”. 

[Patriot6]

On 10/19/2023 at 1:33 PM, Robot Man said:

A point to be made out about Pedigrees. Those who amassed sometimes very large amounts were readers not really “collectors”. Those of us who seek out certain back issues and pay more than cover price are “collectors”. 

Are you going to be dusting off that cool tin haunted mansion toy for halloween this year?

[Robot Man]

On 10/19/2023 at 12:10 PM, Patriot6 said:

Are you going to be dusting off that cool tin haunted mansion toy for halloween this year?

1962 Marx Hooting Hallo Haunted House.

Yep, dusted and out for the Season!

 

[batman_fan]

On 10/16/2023 at 6:39 AM, action1kid said:

About 10 years before you became a member here I flooded the Golden age forum with Action 1 threads. Some early members here will remember. Thus my screen name, action1kid.

I remember you Rudolf the Red Nosed Reindeer more 

[Patriot6]

On 10/19/2023 at 3:15 PM, Robot Man said:

1962 Marx Hooting Hallo Haunted House.

Yep, dusted and out for the Season!

 

Oh man that thing is sweet! I've been away from the boards for a few years, but I've always remembered you posting this when halloween came around. Nice display. Thanks for scratching my itch Robot Man!

 

JF

[Mutie Fan]

I guess if I wanted to pick a few runner up pedigrees just for fun, I would think about the Central Valley, Hawkeye and Vancouver collections. I understand they all have great freshness and pages. 

[sfcityduck]

On 10/19/2023 at 9:46 AM, Superman2006 said:

True, but well worth the "risk" if you're a dealer and you've had experience grossing roughly the total cost of the collection in a single weekend about 5 years prior.

Chuck's biggest risk at the time had to have been the risk that another dealer with a clue and money in the bank would have taken the time to view and acquire the collection while he was arranging funding.

Back in the mid to late 70s, dealers weren't paying OPG.  They were paying no more than 50% and that was really rare. It was usually less. They had their overhead. They had to eat. And they had almost zero competition. So they paid what they could afford. Even Bangzoom, for that incredible WTG (likely Gilchrist) collection he bought in the mid-70s that was pulled from a garbage can but received shock and awe here when revealed, paid on average only a few dollars an issue. And my guess is that BZ was on the very very very generous side of the dealer math. I've heard stories about dealers paying strong prices for collections in the 60s and early 70s, but that was only when they were competing with other dealers, which Chuck wasn't.

So its hard for me to view Chuck as ripping off anyone given the full facts and what I think is the proper perspective on the times. In 1977, interest rates were marching up, almost 9%, and soon would hit as high as 18%. Unemployment was 6% to 7%, and the minimum wage was only $2 an hour.

As for Chuck, he was only 22 years old. He had a store, he had overhead, he no sure income, and he didn't have the purchase price the buyer wanted. He recalled: "At the time this call came in, I had been selling comics for 8 years. Starting with ads in the old Rocket's Blast Comic-Collector in 1969, and moving up to a stand at a monthly antiques show in 1970, I gradually had accumulated a large inventory of old comics. By 1972, I had over 8,000 back issues in my inventory, and rented a booth at my first national comics convention (Multi-con '72 in Oklahoma City). I grossed $1,800 during that convention, which was a huge sum in those days! I was only 17 years old at the time, but I knew from that moment onward that I wanted to be a comics dealer for the rest of my life." 

That's not a portrait of someone with no worries. That's a portrait of a hardworking dreamer. I have seen lots of comic stores go out of business. The guys I know who rode the comic store dream all the way from opening shop by 1970 into the 2020s amounts to just one guy reaching retirement and selling the business. Maybe you know more.  

And remember, Chuck bought that collection before Chuck blew up comic book prices with the concept of multiples (remember that the SF books were sold at slightly more than guide, and Chuck was selling at 3x multiples). The notion that comics would always move up wasn't established, these were still the days of laughter that they had any value at all. So, yeah, there was a lot of risk for 22 year old Chuck when he made his offer. Chuck did two very smart things when he made his offer. The first is that he didn't provide any representation as to what the comics were worth. Instead, he told OOs his purchase price was based on what he could afford to pay and made an offer based on volume.  Even so, the dream could fall apart. But, he probably felt a lot better about the deal when, after the deal was done, the OOs showed him the "closet" with the best comics.

The second smart thing he did was he had the genius idea of getting one of the top collectors in the country, Burl Rowe, to fund the purchase price by  a "loan"  (albeit at the potentially big disadvantage of giving Rowe first choice of comics up to $10K in value - which meant that Chuck was paying off the $2K loan immediately by the first $2K in comics Rowe chose). But, even so, a few years later, Chuck was nearly out of business. Small business is full of risks. What saved him was not the Mile High collection, but the MH2 books.  

[adamstrange]

On 10/19/2023 at 5:44 PM, sfcityduck said:

The second smart thing he did was he had the genius idea of getting one of the top collectors in the country, Burl Rowe, to fund the purchase price by  a "loan"  (albeit at the potentially big disadvantage of giving Rowe first choice of comics up to $10K in value - which meant that Chuck was paying off the $2K loan immediately by the first $2K in comics Rowe chose). But, even so, a few years later, Chuck was nearly out of business. Small business is full of risks. What saved him was not the Mile High collection, but the MH2 books.  

Chuck said he made $2 Million off the Church collection, the value of which he did not fully optimze.  Given the value of money back then, that was awful lot  and should have set him up for life.  That it didn't, was almost certainly due to Chuck's actions.

[action1kid]

On 10/13/2023 at 11:33 AM, buttock said:

I think it (the Church) initially graded as 8.0 and was bumped to 8.5.  In these days of "improvement" DA could be kicking himself as the Church could now technically be nicer.  

 

On 10/14/2023 at 3:48 PM, Paul (GG) © ® ™⚽️💙 said:

I didn't want to be the one to say it.... 

 

On 10/17/2023 at 1:01 AM, lou_fine said:

If that was indeed the case, then wouldn't it be more appropriate to have a thread on "What Are The BOTTOM 5 Pedigree's In YOur Opinion"?  

2 Million bought a hell of a lot more in the 70’s than it does today.