Is This a Grading Anomaly ? 3 3

[Colin Nash]

Like many others I have long puzzled over how certain comics get the grade they do.

I'm throwing in an example that has me baffled. A major silver age key issue X-Men #1 that has a 4.5 grade (photo attached). 

Can anyone give me a logical explanation on why this comic with significant missing pieces on two corners has been graded 4.5 ? It seems to go against all the grading guide information that I have read for a 4.5 grade. Eg.

- Corners may be blunted or abraded.

- As much as 1/8" triangle can be missing out of the corner or edge.

I think the scale of this comics damage goes way beyond the standard principle that "Certain defects are allowed if other defects are not present."

Any views on this would be most helpful.

Thank you

[Get Marwood & I]

On 10/22/2023 at 9:40 AM, Colin Nash said:

Can anyone give me a logical explanation on why this comic with significant missing pieces on two corners has been graded 4.5 ? It seems to go against all the grading guide information that I have read for a 4.5 grade. Eg.

- Corners may be blunted or abraded.

- As much as 1/8" triangle can be missing out of the corner or edge.

I think those are Overstreet definitions, Colin?

Here are CGCs:

https://www.cgccomics.com/grading/grading-scale/

What surprises me about the CGC scale is the wording used as you go up the scale. They use the terms 'moderate' at the lower end, and 'major' towards the top. Shouldn't that be the other way around? Wouldn't you expect a 4.5 description to include the word 'major' and a 7.0 'moderate'? That seems counter intuitive to me. Can a 4.5 not have a major defect? The descriptions don't make a lot of sense really, when you go beyond the above / below average starting points. Maybe you have to buy Nelson's book to get a greater level of finesse.

The grading notes for your book are as follows:

I wouldn't give a book with 'multiple piece(s) out of full bottom of front cover' a 4.5 myself - Mycomicshop certainly wouldn't - but I'm not surprised that CGC would. Do you think your book looks like a 'slightly below average collectible with multiple moderate defects'? Can a 'multiple piece out full bottom of front cover' be described as moderate? Who defines moderate? 

[Lightning55]

The CGC grading scale is the biggest piece of cr@p on the planet. It is useless and has zero meaning. If you don't define defects, and then refer to small, moderate, and major defects, the whole thing is irrelevant. Practically imaginary. 

It is intentionally vague and nondescript so that customers cannot critique the finished product against their poc scale, and then argue the grade.

[zzutak]

On 10/22/2023 at 1:40 AM, Colin Nash said:

It seems to go against all the grading guide information that I have read.  Any views on this would be most helpful.

In my opinion, the best way of learning CGC's system is by examining/studying the images and grader notes of hundreds (if not thousands) of actual CGC-certified comics.  Reading about a system will only take you so far; you need to see how "theory" is put into practice (which is why licensure in professions like engineering and medicine require an applicant to have some period of "hands-on" practice outside the classroom).  Your two biggest hurdles will be: (1) accepting the fact that condition grading is not an exact science (a CGC 6.0 one day could easily be a CGC 5.5 the next); and (2) CGC's system is not static/unchanging (most long-term customers/collectors will agree that CGC's grading standards are looser now than 15~20 years ago).

[Snowdon]

This looks like a grader liked this book type of grade...should be a 3.0-3.5

[Tom789]

CGC is surprisingly lenient, IMO, on missing pieces.  From the recent CGC grading book describing a 4.5: "Up to a 2"x2" piece can be missing from the cover, or an accumulation of smaller pieces totaling that amount."  Your example is certainly less than 2x2 so there were probably other limiting factors to the grade.

[grendelbo]

A 4.5 is a generous but fair grade, especially for such a key book. 

Edited October 23, 2023 by grendelbo

[Lightning55]

On 10/22/2023 at 9:07 PM, grendelbo said:

A 4.5 is a generous but fair grade, especially for such a key book. 

"especially for such a key book" should have absolutely nothing to do with the grade.  The importance, or insignificance, of a book should have no bearing.  The grade is the grade, as it sits. We're not grading on a sliding scale.

And yes, WAY generous.  Generous means you are "overcooking" the grade.  Which is not at all fair, relative to books that earned the grade legitimately.

In my opinion, they viewed the missing corners as a 3.0, but considered the rest of the comic a 6.0, and averaged it out to a 4.5.  That's not how it works, but CGC has no one to answer to, so that's what you get.

It won't matter anyway.  When someone looks at that book at that grade, and consider what the asking price is at the time of sale (whenever that is), they will make their own determination as to whether it is worth the money asked.  The vote with the dollar is the only one that counts.

[Lightning55]

If you click on the link that @Get Marwood & I provided, https://www.cgccomics.com/grading/grading-scale/,

and click on the Page Quality tab, you will see that CGC put 10 times the effort into this as the Grading Scale, and the latter is definitely more important.  The Grading Scale is a joke, like a tiny kid's tricycle compared to a Ram Truck.

The Overstreet Grading Scale and Definitions was created over a period of several decades, with input from from many knowledgeable contributors. It has been tweaked to perfection.  There are descriptions of defects, qualitative and quantitative amounts of each defect to consider, even attributes to look for that are desirable in the grade, not just imperfections listed.  It is very comprehensive.  Why would you reinvent the wheel? https://www.cgccomics.com/grading/grading-scale/  (this version almost 10 years old, and still very serviceable).

This is what CGC says is 4.0 VG:

A below-average collectible with multiple moderate defects.

This is what Overstreet says for 4.0 VG:

4.0 VERY GOOD (VG): The average used comic book. A comic in this condition shows some significant moderate wear, but still has not accumulated enough total defects to reduce eye appeal to the point that it is not a desirable copy. Cover shows moderate to significant wear, and may be loose but not completely detached. Moderate to extreme reduction in reflectivity. Can have an accumulation of creases or dimples. Corners may be blunted or abraded. Store stamps, name stamps, arrival dates, initials, etc. have no effect on this grade. Some discoloration, fading, foxing, and even minor soiling is allowed. As much as a 1/4" triangle can be missing out of the corner or edge; a missing 1/8" square is also acceptable. Only minor unobtrusive tape and other amateur repair allowed on otherwise high grade copies. Moderate spine roll may be present and/or a 1" spine split. Staples may be discolored. Minor to moderate staple tears and stress lines may be present, as well as some rust migration. Paper is (no worse than) brown but not brittle. A minor acidic odor can be detectable. Minor to moderate tears may be present. Centerfold may be loose or detached at one staple.

One company seems to know what it is talking about, the other...not so much.

[Get Marwood & I]

On 10/22/2023 at 9:40 AM, Colin Nash said:

Any views on this would be most helpful.

Any follow up thoughts on the views that myself and others took the time to post Colin?

[Topnotchman]

The explanation on why this graded a 4.5 with the missing corners is it would have graded higher without those defects. Grading is subjective and one often gets a different grade upon straight resubmitting. 

[Lightning55]

On 10/26/2023 at 9:42 AM, Topnotchman said:

The explanation on why this graded a 4.5 with the missing corners is it would have graded higher without those defects.

EVERY comic "would have graded higher without those defects".  Duh.

If it didn't have creases, it would have graded higher.  If it didn't have spine tics, it would have graded higher.  If it wasn't missing the cover, it would have graded higher.

But, since it does have these problems, it doesn't get graded higher.  Except for a certain X-Men 1.  Which is definitely over-graded at 4.5 and big chunks missing.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Lightning55

[jas1vans]

Any chance the reason it's a 4.5 instead of a 3.0 is that it costs more to grade a 4.5 than a 3.0?

 

 

[Lightning55]

On 10/26/2023 at 11:06 AM, jas1vans said:

Any chance the reason it's a 4.5 instead of a 3.0 is that it costs more to grade a 4.5 than a 3.0

Could be.....

Edited October 26, 2023 by Lightning55

[marvelmaniac]

My ...Personally, with the two large pieces missing I would have graded that book in the GD+ 2.5 - GD/VG 3.0 range depending on the rest of the book, IMO, the issue itself should not play a part in how much leniency the book receives from a grader, if anything, only the time period should make a difference, Gold always seems to get more leniency but that should include all books from the era, you cannot pick and choose which books get special treatment because you like one better than the other, (although real life seems to work that way) graders have to remain impartial. If you are going to be that lenient on an X-Men 1 then all Silver Age books should get the same treatment, IMO, this is done to keep folks happy and coming back, just like everything else, it is all about 

If the book itself were higher grade with the pieces missing it would be graded accordingly, and because there are two pieces missing and the grading standards always refer to the singular the book should be downgraded accordingly. The grading standards I go by...

GD 2.0 - The largest piece allowed missing from the front or back cover is usually a 1/2" triangle or a 1/4" square, 

GD/VG 3.0 - A triangle from 1/4" to 1/2" can be missing out of the corner or edge; a missing 1/8" to 1/4" square is also acceptable. 

VG 4.0 - - As much as a 1/4" triangle can be missing out of the corner or edge; a missing 1/8" square is also acceptable. 

Grading is very subjective and has lots of Gray areas, we could argue/debate grading all day long and not resolve anything, the moral, regardless of an assigned grade, always look at the book in its entirety yourself and determine if you would be happy with it as is. 

[Gaard]

On 10/26/2023 at 9:42 AM, Topnotchman said:

The explanation on why this graded a 4.5 with the missing corners is it would have graded higher without those defects. Grading is subjective and one often gets a different grade upon straight resubmitting. 

Should it be, though?

[JK2022]

How about the difference between a 9.6 and a 9.8? I defy anyone to tell the difference, I know modern books are rarely "Grails" (which shouldn't matter anyway and how do you even have the balls to grade a paper comic book a 10!) but come-on! from 9.0 to 10 they are all over the place....

tell me I'm wrong.

If you profess to be the industry leader have some standards, (ISO 9000 for comics?) as of now it's a shoot on what will be returned regardless on what is sent in.

shame

 

[grendelbo]

The 9.6 grade should be eliminated from the scale. 

[The Lions Den]

On 3/12/2024 at 5:10 PM, JK2022 said:

How about the difference between a 9.6 and a 9.8? I defy anyone to tell the difference, I know modern books are rarely "Grails" (which shouldn't matter anyway and how do you even have the balls to grade a paper comic book a 10!) but come-on! from 9.0 to 10 they are all over the place....

tell me I'm wrong.

If you profess to be the industry leader have some standards, (ISO 9000 for comics?) as of now it's a shoot on what will be returned regardless on what is sent in.

shame

 

Trust me, there is a difference...but very few people know what it is. 

[grendelbo]

On 3/12/2024 at 7:13 PM, The Lions Den said:

Trust me, there is a difference...but very few people know what it is.