COMIC STORES 2023: 'IT'S NEARLY 2024 AND I'M MORE THAN CONCERNED' 4 4

[AbsoluteCarnage]

On 12/2/2023 at 6:06 PM, VintageComics said:

Why would I need a digital camera to photograph something from 1977?

Any camera will work. 

I didn't cash the check because somehow, in a family of 8, it was forgotten about. 

And as far as premonitions go, I believe in them and live them. After this conversation matured into what it is now, I was thinking exactly that: That it is amazing that 36 years later, saving this check BY ACCIDENT worked out very well for me. 

But then I truly believe that nothing in life is co-incidence and that everything truly and genuinely happens for a reason. I know a lot of people just say that, but believe it and live that way every day. 

Buying a few Hulk 181's at $1.25 each with that $11 dollars would have worked out a tad better for you

[Chip Cataldo]

In the vein of Roy saving the check, an interesting anecdote for Buzzetta...

I still have the carbon of the money order I mailed off to get my carded Power of the Force Yak Face ($100) and Anakin Skywalker ($75) back in 1988. I think I also still have the cut-out of the ad I ordered them from that was in Toy Shop magazine, but I'm not sure.

I wish I had the figures instead of that carbon right now, let me tell you. Lol.

[CAHokie]

This thread summed up.

[Lightning55]

On 12/2/2023 at 6:06 PM, VintageComics said:

Why would I need a digital camera to photograph something from 1977?

Any camera will work. 

I didn't cash the check because somehow, in a family of 8, it was forgotten about. 

And as far as premonitions go, I believe in them and live them. After this conversation matured into what it is now, I was thinking exactly that: That it is amazing that 36 years later, saving this check BY ACCIDENT worked out very well for me. 

But then I truly believe that nothing in life is co-incidence and that everything truly and genuinely happens for a reason. I know a lot of people just say that, but believe it and live that way every day. 

You wouldn't need a digital camera, except if that was a photo of the film photo you took in 1977, it sure looked good for a photo of a 46 year old photo. And why take a photo at all of a check that had a receipt stub? 

So that led to the conclusion that it was a today photo of the original check, which also didn't seem right, uncashed for 46 years. And all this precipitated my question, and your ensuing logical explanation. 

[VintageComics]

On 12/2/2023 at 7:14 PM, Lightning55 said:

You wouldn't need a digital camera, except if that was a photo of the film photo you took in 1977, it sure looked good for a photo of a 46 year old photo. And why take a photo at all of a check that had a receipt stub? 

So that led to the conclusion that it was a today photo of the original check, which also didn't seem right, uncashed for 46 years. And all this precipitated my question, and your ensuing logical explanation. 

 Thank you for giving me the benefit if the doubt. If all conversations were this respectful the world would be a better place. It's genuinely appreciated. 

[VintageComics]

On 12/2/2023 at 6:40 PM, CAHokie said:

This thread summed up.

Nah. More like everybody be like 'dis:

 

[CAHokie]

[Lazyboy]

On 12/2/2023 at 4:49 PM, VintageComics said:

I am very glad you mentioned that. 

I was waiting for you to say that so that I could show you in detail how the hobby has changed over the years. 

So we've covered the 70's and 80's.

I posted those examples to show you that origin issues were originally considered prime material because comics used to be based on reading the content and not the covers. The only way to show you this is to show you how the hobby evolved through the documented Bible we have, the OSPG.

Now I'm going to show you this from 2006. This book was probably the first OSPG where I started to notice huge jumps in key prices that I believe were directly related to the CGC market. If you all remember, the big SA keys took HUGE jumps around this time:

 

Now look at the same issues I documented from the 1970's and 80's

Superman. 

You'll notice that there are even MORE origin stories broken out with Superman #3 noting origin reprint from Action #5.

But you'll also notice that Superman #53 is now broken out as the 3rd telling of the Superman origin! 

So, in 2006, 68 years after the 1st origin of Superman, and 23 years after the last OSPG I posted (which you mocked for being "decades old", the OSPG is STILL breaking out Origin stories and in greater detail than ever before. 

I'm doing this to show you that Origin stories were always considered important historically, no matter how people feel about them today. 

 

Detective Comics #31 vs #33

 

Strange Tales:

 

And finally, Marvel Tales (issue #75 is the origin reprint of the origin retelling in ASM #94):

If you're going to try to convince me of something, using Overstreet after it turned to irrelevant  is definitely not the way to do it, especially with your example still being almost two decades old.

Again, the point is that origins have been endlessly reprinted and retold. It's not that they don't matter or people care about them any less, it's that they're very easily accessible, in one form or another.

[VintageComics]

On 12/2/2023 at 5:49 PM, VintageComics said:

Detective Comics #31 vs #33

 

 

 

Just to finish off the point I was trying to make in this conversation, I think that if we did a study comparing many comparable Origin books, which were valuable for their story content, to classic covers where are only valuable for their cover content, I think more often than not we'd see a divergence with the cover books taking off compared to a much more flat curve for the books known for their internal content. 

As I said, I think Tec #31 and #33 are perfect examples for this comparison. They're unique because they are only 2 issues apart (so same era), and Tec #33 was a more valuable book back in the day but has now gone on to be eclipsed by Tec #31 simply because of the slab generation. 

The slab generation is a microcosm of what's happened out in the real world. The internet has driven toward the sparkle and dazzle of good serotonin hit (similar to taking in a simple sugar) and what has suffered is good content (complex carbs).

I think the graphs of the two curves are the most obvious tells. 

Detective Comics #31 CGC 4.0

 

Detective Comics #33 CGC 4.0

 

Edited December 3, 2023 by VintageComics

[NoMan]

man, you guys must have a lot of free time...

[VintageComics]

On 12/2/2023 at 8:38 PM, Lazyboy said:

Again, the point is that origins have been endlessly reprinted and retold. It's not that they don't matter or people care about them any less, it's that they're very easily accessible, in one form or another.

You're focusing on Origin stories, and while I was trying to make my point you and a few others kept trying to derail the conversation.

My point is not whether origin stories are still relevant or not. They will always be relevant. 

My point was always that story content has become far less important now to comic collectors than covers have become and I simply used origin stories as ONE EXAMPLE of this. 

Another other example I used was L.B. Cole covers.

Baker covers are another.

Nobody reads Baker stories or L.B Cole stories anymore and before the slab age, nobody really chased them as much. I know because I was buying Baker covers for $100 a pop a decade ago. 

They were always collectible but in the cover age they have taken off exponentially so that books that could have been had for a few $100 are now costing you $1000's and even $10,000's and I think this is indicative of how the social media age has changed markets. 

People's attention spans have gotten shorter, they've been programmed to find the serotonin hit in everything as fast as possible, and I believe that this need for instant gratification through the same social engineering that is affecting everyone outside of comics, is slowing the sales of comics and books when compared to things like video games, dating apps, porn, instagram and whatever else gives people that quick sugar rush.

It's similar for music. Nobody can take the time to listen to a 5 or an 8 minute song. Everyone wants their sugar fix in under 3 minutes. 

On 12/2/2023 at 8:38 PM, Lazyboy said:

If you're going to try to convince me of something, using Overstreet after it turned to irrelevant  is definitely not the way to do it, especially with your example still being almost two decades old.

I needed to show examples OVER TIME. 

You don't get to qualify the time frame for the point I'M TRYING TO MAKE. 

I have now shown a pattern over a period of 50 years, from past to present. If you'd stop deriding me for long enough to allow me to finish a thought, you'd see that but instead all you do is deride people you disagree with. 

It's something this forum is getting tired of.  

Now you can take my data and my point and discuss it, but if your discussion points can't be established in a marketplace of free ideas, they don't deserve any air.   

Edited December 3, 2023 by VintageComics

[Prince Namor]

On 12/3/2023 at 8:38 AM, Lazyboy said:

If you're going to try to convince me of something, using Overstreet after it turned to irrelevant  is definitely not the way to do it, especially with your example still being almost two decades old.

Again, the point is that origins have been endlessly reprinted and retold. It's not that they don't matter or people care about them any less, it's that they're very easily accessible, in one form or another.

Yep. Pretty much a reference book at this point.

The search for origin stories 4 decades ago, predates, as you pointed out, the constant reprints, trades, digital availability, etc.

[Prince Namor]

On 12/3/2023 at 8:45 AM, VintageComics said:

Just to finish off the point I was trying to make in this conversation, I think that if we did a study comparing many comparable Origin books, which were valuable for their story content, to classic covers where are only valuable for their cover content, I think more often than not we'd see a divergence with the cover books taking off compared to a much more flat curve for the books known for their internal content. 

As I said, I think Tec #31 and #33 are perfect examples for this comparison. They're unique because they are only 2 issues apart (so same era), and Tec #33 was a more valuable book back in the day but has now gone on to be eclipsed by Tec #31 simply because of the slab generation. 

The slab generation is a microcosm of what's happened out in the real world. The internet has driven toward the sparkle and dazzle of good serotonin hit (similar to taking in a simple sugar) and what has suffered is good content (complex carbs).

I think the graphs of the two curves are the most obvious tells. 

Detective Comics #31 CGC 4.0

 

 

Detective Comics #33 CGC 4.0

 

In all seriousness, if you have all of those OSPG's, THAT would be a Nobel quest worthy of a CGC member - go through and graph as many key, former key, current key books and make a website or a regular thread here about it. That would be hugely valuable information. 

You'd need to pre-set your points though...

As to your comparison... I don't know that there are enough copies - sold within the same time frame - to be able to make that call... I agree, #31's rise has come about because of the iconic cover, but I think long, long ago people stopped searching for #31 because it was an 'origin story'. Really you'd have to do a comparison to all pre-Tec Robin's, because other than #27 and the cover of #31, they should all go up pretty accordingly (maybe #35 more because of THAT cover - and maybe NOT #30, #32, #34 without Batman on the cover - #28 still because it's the 2nd app... all speculation).

Anyway, it'd be great info...

[Prince Namor]

On 12/3/2023 at 9:04 AM, VintageComics said:

My point was always that story content has become far less important now to comic collectors than covers have become and I simply used origin stories as ONE EXAMPLE of this. 

Right. A service that ENCLOSES the comic, so that you can't READ it, is collected by people who don't read them.

Well of course it is. 

On 12/3/2023 at 9:04 AM, VintageComics said:

Another other example I used was L.B. Cole covers.

Baker covers are another.

Nobody reads Baker stories or L.B Cole stories anymore and before the slab age, nobody really chased them as much. I know because I was buying Baker covers for $100 a pop a decade ago. 

They were always collectible but in the cover age they have taken off exponentially so that books that could have been had for a few $100 are now costing you $1000's and even $10,000's and I think this is indicative of how the social media age has changed markets. 

Well I wouldn't say NOBODY reads them... the collectors's, especially the original collectors of someone like Cole or Baker are VERY MUCH versed in stories done... surely you've talked to those guys. I've made points and observations in my Kirby/Ditko/Lee threads (pre-hero), and had a few nice messages from people pointing out great info, about those stories.

I get where you're coming from with it - younger collectors are coming into the market and discovering that material - completely unaware of the interior art - and focusing solely on the cover as the buying factor.

Didn't we see this as early as the 90's? before social media and the Internet?

Didn't comic book companies use HOT artists to do covers even as early as the 60's with lesser art inside, just to sell the book?

I get your point, and I understand the 'social media is bad' aspect of it - I just don't think it's SOLELY responsible, nor as simple as you're trying to put it,

On 12/3/2023 at 9:04 AM, VintageComics said:

People's attention spans have gotten shorter, they've been programmed to find the serotonin hit in everything as fast as possible, and I believe that this need for instant gratification through the same social engineering that is affecting everyone outside of comics, is slowing the sales of comics and books when compared to things like video games, dating apps, porn, instagram and whatever else gives people that quick sugar rush.

It's similar for music. Nobody can take the time to listen to a 5 or an 8 minute song. Everyone wants their sugar fix in under 3 minutes. 

I'm not sure those people are buying Tec #31's...

[Lazyboy]

On 12/2/2023 at 8:04 PM, VintageComics said:

My point was always that story content has become far less important now to comic collectors than covers have become

Then your point is just pure bull. It might be closer to being true for slab collectors, but that is nothing.

[Cat]

On 12/3/2023 at 12:04 PM, VintageComics said:

You're focusing on Origin stories, and while I was trying to make my point you and a few others kept trying to derail the conversation.

My point is not whether origin stories are still relevant or not. They will always be relevant. 

My point was always that story content has become far less important now to comic collectors than covers have become and I simply used origin stories as ONE EXAMPLE of this. 

Another other example I used was L.B. Cole covers.

Baker covers are another.

Nobody reads Baker stories or L.B Cole stories anymore and before the slab age, nobody really chased them as much. I know because I was buying Baker covers for $100 a pop a decade ago. 

They were always collectible but in the cover age they have taken off exponentially so that books that could have been had for a few $100 are now costing you $1000's and even $10,000's and I think this is indicative of how the social media age has changed markets. 

People's attention spans have gotten shorter, they've been programmed to find the serotonin hit in everything as fast as possible, and I believe that this need for instant gratification through the same social engineering that is affecting everyone outside of comics, is slowing the sales of comics and books when compared to things like video games, dating apps, porn, instagram and whatever else gives people that quick sugar rush.

It's similar for music. Nobody can take the time to listen to a 5 or an 8 minute song. Everyone wants their sugar fix in under 3 minutes. 

I needed to show examples OVER TIME. 

You don't get to qualify the time frame for the point I'M TRYING TO MAKE. 

I have now shown a pattern over a period of 50 years, from past to present. If you'd stop deriding me for long enough to allow me to finish a thought, you'd see that but instead all you do is deride people you disagree with. 

It's something this forum is getting tired of.  

Now you can take my data and my point and discuss it, but if your discussion points can't be established in a marketplace of free ideas, they don't deserve any air.   

You obviously don't know a thing about video games. People get mad if they don't get 100 hours of content out of a game. Hardly a 'quick sugar rush'. 

If people want to read Golden Age comics, they're not buying the originals to read. They'll read a scan on the 'net or buy a reprint if available, but generally will leave the original in the slab, as they've been taught not to touch them by their elders. The material is still very much out there, just acquired in different formats than before. 

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/2/2023 at 9:26 PM, Cat said:

You obviously don't know a thing about video games. People get mad if they don't get 100 hours of content out of a game. Hardly a 'quick sugar rush'. 

 

It was a passable point for me, but heartily agree that gaming has its merits in "school activities!" Whether it be odd facts or trivia and or math, reading, typing (which sounds like a step child to writing in cursive lol) ha! I remembered a post about video games being a distraction somehow, but I guess that post was a ways back and moving on, stage left!!  

Spoiler

And while it is focused in entertainment, it does have its interactive abilities that can teach in a different way. I remember growing up that people learned in different ways. My brother even from the 80s and 7 years younger than me, if it weren't for technology might not be as prolific in his duties. 

For me it was psalms. "I never learned to read or write so well, but I could play a guitar until it hurts like heck!" ~ green day.

I enjoy the writing and had to get better at typing. I write essays and etc, but am lazy when it comes to typing

Back to entertainment or engagement, it could be used as an opportunity but age wide wisdom wouldn't forget writing and other forms of pen and paper, which I tend to agree with also if possible.

 

 

Edited December 3, 2023 by ADAMANTIUM

[Prince Namor]

On 12/3/2023 at 10:17 AM, Lazyboy said:

Then your point is just pure bull. It might be closer to being true for slab collectors, but that is nothing.

Yep. Slab collectors are a very small niche of the overall hobby.

It may not seem that way on THIS forum to some. But it's is fact.

[Prince Namor]

On 12/3/2023 at 9:04 AM, VintageComics said:

People's attention spans have gotten shorter, they've been programmed to find the serotonin hit in everything as fast as possible, and I believe that this need for instant gratification through the same social engineering that is affecting everyone outside of comics, is slowing the sales of comics and books when compared to things like video games, dating apps, porn, instagram and whatever else gives people that quick sugar rush.

It's similar for music. Nobody can take the time to listen to a 5 or an 8 minute song. Everyone wants their sugar fix in under 3 minutes. 

I needed to show examples OVER TIME. 

I have now shown a pattern over a period of 50 years, from past to present.

How do you explain the rising number of digital comic sales every year? 

There's no way we can ever tell if someone buying a physical floppy is doing it to read to not, but it's pretty darn sure that when someone buys a digital copy of a comic - they're buying it to READ.

The same with graphic novel sales that keep going up each year. Those are to read.

How do you explain that?

[Stefan_W]

On 12/3/2023 at 4:43 AM, Prince Namor said:

How do you explain the rising number of digital comic sales every year? 

There's no way we can ever tell if someone buying a physical floppy is doing it to read to not, but it's pretty darn sure that when someone buys a digital copy of a comic - they're buying it to READ.

The same with graphic novel sales that keep going up each year. Those are to read.

How do you explain that?

I've actually bought more than one comic collection from individuals who are selling off their hard copies and switching to reading comics online. People who actually read these things and dont give a rat's you-know-what about collectability are an important subset of the comic collecting community. I dont know the numbers but I would not be surprised if people focused on reading are switching to buying their comics in a digital format.