COMIC STORES 2023: 'IT'S NEARLY 2024 AND I'M MORE THAN CONCERNED' 4 4

[Ken Aldred]

On 11/14/2023 at 1:15 AM, Paul (GG) © ® ™⚽️💙 said:

Comic books aren't as good as they were.  Shocker.  

In other news....

As a soon-to-be 60-year-old who can find some modern comics to be at least as good as many of the best from my youth, clearly I’m a bit of an anomaly.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Ken Aldred

[Paul © ® ⚽️💙™]

On 11/14/2023 at 1:18 AM, Ken Aldred said:

As a soon-to-be 60-year-old who can find some new comics to be at least as good as many of the best from my youth, clearly I’m a bit of an anomaly.

It's a generational thing I guess. There is some merit to modern stuff. Have you read the Bogie Man...published I think c.1990. Funniest stuff I've ever read.

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by Paul (GG) © ® ™⚽️💙
spelling.

[Prince Namor]

On 11/14/2023 at 7:41 AM, fastballspecial said:

My quesiton is why isnt this brought up at Cons when executives are there for this discussion?

I'm not sure what they could do and really... I'm not sure they'd be honest about their intentions... which are...

On 11/14/2023 at 7:06 AM, KingOfRulers said:

It's sad to say, but I foresee interest in newly published comics continuing to decline. I don't see that trend ever reversing. I think American-style Marvel and DC comics had their time, and that time is coming to an end. It's hard for me to imagine newly published Marvel and DC comics going extinct (at least not in my lifetime), but I definitely expect continuous readership declines.

If you notice... we don't see any publishing statistics anymore. Even MORE concerning is... we have no idea what the DIGITAL sales numbers are.

Think about it...

If I'm Marvel Incorporated and I don't care about anything other than what's best for ME... I continue making comics - in DIGITAL FORM - to completely cut out the middle man (Diamond and the Retailers) - who they've pretty much distrusted and abused for decades. Print can completely die... and Marvel can still continue to publish (to hold onto publishing rights) strictly through Marvel at a fraction of the cost. 

Most likely that day is coming...

[Dr. Haydn]

On 11/13/2023 at 5:26 PM, Ken Aldred said:

Be careful with Archies from the 2010s onwards. 
 

Zombie epidemics, werewolves eviscerating their victims, satanism.

Not all-ages entertainment.

I learned how to read in the late 60s thanks to Gold Key, Harvey, and Archie comics. Fairly innocuous reading material for the young'uns back in the day! I must admit, the frequent innuendo in the Archie stories harmlessly sailed way over my head. I do understand that it's a grimmer and grittier world these days, even among the kiddie characters.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Dr. Haydn
Added sentence at bottom

[sevans1979]

I still have a pull file at my LCS that I’ve been going to for 15 years. It’s down to about 6 titles. I used to go every wed and I’d have 6-8 titles a week but since about 2018 or so I have cut back huge. My main issue is the price to entertainment ratio. Like many have already stated, 3.99, 4.99, 5.99 for 6 mins a mediocre story is just not doing it. I’ll probably cut down my list more. I enjoy getting 70s and 80s back issues for a buck or 2 and read those. I also enjoy reading fiction novels and books on military/war topics. I can go to a half price book store and get a 400 page book for 3.99 and get more value out of that. 

[Ryan.]

On 11/13/2023 at 8:32 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

do understand that it's a grimmer and grittier world these days, even among the kiddie characters.

Perhaps you haven't seen the horror and crime comics from the early 50s...

[Dr. Haydn]

On 11/13/2023 at 7:59 PM, Ryan. said:

Perhaps you haven't seen the horror and crime comics from the early 50s...

True--the pre-code stuff could be pretty gruesome. I hope they were marketing the crime and horror comics (especially) to an older audience.

[fmaz]

I honestly think you can look at this issue from two angles - did the comic industry squander its share of the entertainment marketplace, or did the rest of the marketplace around it grow so fast that losing it's share was inevitable?

I mean, let's face it - for those of us who grew up on comics in the 70's and 80's what was the entertainment competition? There was no internet, just the very beginnings of the video game industry (first arcades and then early home systems), and we went from three TV networks to early basic cable, but no such thing as a DVR... the VCR was the "wow" invention when it hit.  So the weekly run to the comic store was a big deal!

Kids today? Why on early pay $4 $5 for PART of a story about characters they like... when they stream 20+ movies or series about them, play hours of immersive video games AS them... and so forth. 

Our son (now 25) grew up loving comics and superheroes because I did. He collected action figures, read books, etc... and now in his life that means he sees all the movies, watches all the shows... and stays on top of all the entertainment version of all his favorite characters. And he loves that, from a nostalgia perspective, I have a comic collection that he'll inherit some day. But he has not picked up an actual comic book since he was 10 years old. And he's someone who is deeply knowledgeable about, for example, the whole Marvel Universe.  When we saw Eternals no one had to explain to him who Pip the Troll was (not that that's THAT much of a deep cut, but you get the drift).

So for ALL the failings that the industry has brought on itself -- hey, I abandoned comics myself during the 90's... and today I pick and choose some selected Modern stuff, and totally agree the art can seem preposterous.  But there are also some quality people working in the field today. To dismiss them is to miss some great stuff. The talk of "wokeness" as an issue... is ...to me... a bit silly. But hey, people use certain things as reason to take a stand or be loud on social media. Good for them.

Anyway, what do I think the industry can do (from a non-comic shop owner perspective?)

1 - Reduce the number of books. Sorry to say, but I think that's a huge cause of the problem. Batman, Spider-Man, Superman, etc... the biggies should always be in production on their monthly schedule.  But the little books? That have to keep getting rebooted to get noticed? What happens is everyone buys the #1, and then the shelves are full of unread #2s, and the back issue bins are full of 3s, 4s, etc... just a waste.  No one is going to pick up a #3 of a book they've never read. And many people won't even pick up a #1 of a title they aren't sure of.

2. Start using Trades as FIRST RUN books. Instead of reprinting past issues, for smaller books, instead of throwing a #1 on the stand and hoping it sells... wait and throw out a TPB with a first-run arc or limited series with issues #1-5.  That way, a new reader can pick up a complete arc and read it. If they're in a comic store they are buying a WHOLE story. Just as if they were streaming a movie. They're not used to buying PART of something anymore. No one has patience. And if it sells, then go ahead and do another... change creative teams, etc.. but only full arcs.  From a collector's standpoint, these would have the same value as single-issues... they'd have first appearances, etc. They wouldn't be reprints. And I think they'd sell.

3. Stop with the multi-book crossovers, or, if you're going to do them - see #2 above. Multi-character crossovers are great. Introduce fans of one character to another. But this isn't a scavenger hunt.

That's all I've got.

Edited November 14, 2023 by fmaz

[Ken Aldred]

On 11/14/2023 at 7:47 AM, fmaz said:

I mean, let's face it - for those of us who grew up on comics in the 70's and 80's what was the entertainment competition? There was no internet, just the very beginnings of the video game industry (first arcades and then early home systems), and we went from three TV networks to early basic cable, but no such thing as a DVR... the VCR was the "wow" invention when it hit.  So the weekly run to the comic store was a big deal!

Kids today? Why on early pay $4 $5 for PART of a story about characters they like... when they stream 20+ movies or series about them, play hours of immersive video games AS them... and so forth. 

A comment made in a documentary about 70s TV in Britain, and the huge viewing figures, especially for prime time weekend shows, that the public wasn’t so much enthralled by the quality of material on offer, they were in thrall to the format and had no other option but to give in and apply full and immediate attention to the provider.

Similarly, we have other options besides the dictates of book exchanges, LCSs, conventions, back issue dealers and much more diverse means for reading and acquiring a comic story without similar, prehistoric dependencies, and many alternative feeding grounds to explore and graze upon.  Only the same depletion effect; the old school businesses begin to starve, some down to oblivion, others like vinyl resurge. Basic food chain theory, a scenario in which the predator becomes the most vulnerable and struggles the greatest.  In some cases it’s sad and I’m less clinical about it, such as when you see a store owner who’s looked after you for years close down due to the falling demand which is being analysed here. In other cases, the sense of freedom and convenience and finding a format that works best from out of all the myriad options, away from malign dependency, is quite a relief.

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by Ken Aldred

[NewWorldOrder]

When I was growing up in the 90's as a kid and then as a teenager comics still were the main way I got to know a comic book characters, but also in the mix were the FOX animated cartoons (Spider-man, X-men, etc.), trading cards, toys, and video games with occasional Batman movies.  However, comic books were still the main marketing tool for me.  I think kids now get introduced more from the movies and video games then the comics.  New comics used to be the main introduction for young individuals to the superhero characters, now its just part of the overall marketing campaign.  IMO

[Stefan_W]

On 11/13/2023 at 10:13 AM, Prince Namor said:

Has zero to do with wokeness. 

I am so happy that you mentioned this point. A part of the community loves to bang the "things are sucking because of wokeness" drum when, in reality, the main issue is that the quality of movie, shows, and comics has been swirling the drain for a while. If the product is really good it will draw an audience (although probably less so for actual comics than for movie and shows), and if we are being fed a steady diet of products eventually people will spend their cash elsewhere. For movies and shows I dont care if the central character is a man, women, straight, bi, or whatever so long as the story is compelling. For comics I am in the same boat at the person I quoted in that I dont read most new comics even if I do buy them. 

[Cat]

On 11/14/2023 at 9:26 AM, Ken Aldred said:

Be careful with Archies from the 2010s onwards. 
 

Zombie epidemics, werewolves eviscerating their victims, satanism.

Not all-ages entertainment.

That is family entertainment these days. Nobody takes that pfaff seriously except old loonies. Plus it's hardly 'eviscerating' is it? Isn't that going a bit over the top with it. The pages I've seen fall below that mark. 

As was said, it falls well below the mark of what kids were reading in the 40's and 50's, too. 

[justadude]

In a market where comic shops regularly "don't receive" the hot issue only to hoard them and put them in back issue bins at 5x the price the next month, good riddance. I'll preorder online with a larger discount.

Again, comics aren't failing. Comics are at an all time high in sales. Superhero comics are failing. And again, good riddance.

[NewWorldOrder]

On 11/13/2023 at 5:24 PM, Prince Namor said:

I'm not sure what they could do and really... I'm not sure they'd be honest about their intentions... which are...

If you notice... we don't see any publishing statistics anymore. Even MORE concerning is... we have no idea what the DIGITAL sales numbers are.

Think about it...

If I'm Marvel Incorporated and I don't care about anything other than what's best for ME... I continue making comics - in DIGITAL FORM - to completely cut out the middle man (Diamond and the Retailers) - who they've pretty much distrusted and abused for decades. Print can completely die... and Marvel can still continue to publish (to hold onto publishing rights) strictly through Marvel at a fraction of the cost. 

Most likely that day is coming...

Now I am not saying you are wrong, but I just remember in the 90's the comic book store I worked at the owner all the time told me LCS's were on borrowed time because Marvel was going to open there own branch of stores (and start going fully digital) and stop distributions all together at the LCS level.

He was so paranoid, and yet here were are in 2023 and that still has no happened yet to level he was concerned with.

[Ken Aldred]

On 11/14/2023 at 2:51 PM, Cat said:

. Plus it's hardly 'eviscerating' is it? Isn't that going a bit over the top with it. The pages I've seen fall below that mark.

Just in the process of reading Jughead The Hunger, where he’s a werewolf.  Plenty of gory scenes in that which fit the description.  Whereas, Vampironica is tamer and more Gothic.   Not your traditional Archie.

Plus, there was an ironic, joke element to my post as well, comparing the big difference of old with new.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Ken Aldred

[The humble Watcher lurking]

Variant covers. A few modern comics I was going to collect then I realized I had to buy 10 different numbers #1`s of the same book, so I passed. I could see a new collector being confused by the vast amount of variant covers out there for the same issue.

[Cat]

On 11/15/2023 at 4:40 AM, Ken Aldred said:

Just in the process of reading Jughead The Hunger, where he’s a werewolf.  Plenty of gory scenes in that which fit the description.  Whereas, Vampironica is tamer and more Gothic.   Not your traditional Archie.

Plus, there was an ironic, joke element to my post as well, comparing the big difference of old with new.

Ah I didn't pick up on that, my apologies mate. And I'll defer to your wisdom in this case. 

[ttfitz]

On 11/14/2023 at 1:10 PM, justadude said:

Again, comics aren't failing. Comics are at an all time high in sales.

I don't know what current comic sales are, but I'm guessing this is true only if "all time" only goes back a decade or two. Superman, Batman, Captain Marvel, and others regularly sold over a million copies a month in the 40s. 

[justadude]

On 11/14/2023 at 12:39 PM, ttfitz said:

I don't know what current comic sales are, but I'm guessing this is true only if "all time" only goes back a decade or two. Superman, Batman, Captain Marvel, and others regularly sold over a million copies a month in the 40s. 

Gross sales. Manga, children's comics, and trade paperbacks are all "comics" and make up the vast majority of the comics market. While they don't sell more in quantity than pre-code, they sell more in gross sales.

[ttfitz]

On 11/14/2023 at 4:14 PM, justadude said:

Gross sales. Manga, children's comics, and trade paperbacks are all "comics" and make up the vast majority of the comics market. While they don't sell more in quantity than pre-code, they sell more in gross sales.

So you are talking dollar volume? Yeah, I guess if you continually raise your prices, you can claim an "all time record" in sales. Not really sure that proves anything about the health of the industry, but maybe that's just me.

Although I will note that 10¢ in 1940 had the same buying power as $2.15 now, so if you adjusted for inflation it probably still wouldn't be a true statement.