COMIC STORES 2023: 'IT'S NEARLY 2024 AND I'M MORE THAN CONCERNED' 4 4

[NewWorldOrder]

On 11/14/2023 at 6:50 AM, Stefan_W said:

I am so happy that you mentioned this point. A part of the community loves to bang the "things are sucking because of wokeness" drum when, in reality, the main issue is that the quality of movie, shows, and comics has been swirling the drain for a while. If the product is really good it will draw an audience (although probably less so for actual comics than for movie and shows), and if we are being fed a steady diet of products eventually people will spend their cash elsewhere. For movies and shows I dont care if the central character is a man, women, straight, bi, or whatever so long as the story is compelling. For comics I am in the same boat at the person I quoted in that I dont read most new comics even if I do buy them. 

Truth usually is somewhere in the middle right? So, I hear what you saying but I think there is some validity that what others saying is happening and you are saying doesn't happen.  Maybe not as extreme as people make out to be, but its is def there.

#1 culprit, I agree....bad storytelling, but some of those bad stories are a byproduct of trying to be extreme and pandering.  Where even one writer flat out said, "if you don't like my politics then don't buy my book."   Think we can agree that usually is not a great way to sell new comics.

[Brock]

On 11/14/2023 at 3:39 PM, ttfitz said:

I don't know what current comic sales are, but I'm guessing this is true only if "all time" only goes back a decade or two. Superman, Batman, Captain Marvel, and others regularly sold over a million copies a month in the 40s. 

 

On 11/14/2023 at 4:40 PM, ttfitz said:

So you are talking dollar volume? Yeah, I guess if you continually raise your prices, you can claim an "all time record" in sales. Not really sure that proves anything about the health of the industry, but maybe that's just me.

Although I will note that 10¢ in 1940 had the same buying power as $2.15 now, so if you adjusted for inflation it probably still wouldn't be a true statement.

Dav Pilkey's top 9 comics sold more than 3.3 million copies in 2022, and the "long tail" of his lesser selling books added another 400,000 copies. His top comic in 2021 sold 1.3 million copies. That's not far off the circulations of peak issues in the 1940s.

And yes, the fact that one of his comics sells for 100 times what a comic did in the 1940s is relevat. In looking at a typical online inflation calculator, something that cost $0.10 in 1940 should cost about $2.21 today (see https://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm). That mean's Pilkey's stiff is about 450% more profitable than those Golden Age books.

I can't speak for @justadude but it sometimes feels on these boards that we are complaining about the impending "collapse" of an industry that hasn't existed as we imagine it for more than 50 years, except in these strange little countercultural hidey-holes scattered across the hollowed out downtowns of America. We're wearing vintage superhero t-shirts and discussing wokeness, variant covers and the Previews catalogue for the umpteenth time, while the real comics industry is massive, and having a party with all the cool kids in a different part of town.

 

[Math Teacher]

On 11/14/2023 at 2:39 PM, ttfitz said:

I don't know what current comic sales are, but I'm guessing this is true only if "all time" only goes back a decade or two. Superman, Batman, Captain Marvel, and others regularly sold over a million copies a month in the 40s. 

Of course, back then, if you wanted more Superman, Batman, etc., your choices were watch the few serials that were produced, or listen to the radio.

Today, the same type of choices seem almost endless.

[Prince Namor]

On 11/15/2023 at 5:10 AM, Brock said:

 

Dav Pilkey's top 9 comics sold more than 3.3 million copies in 2022, and the "long tail" of his lesser selling books added another 400,000 copies. His top comic in 2021 sold 1.3 million copies. That's not far off the circulations of peak issues in the 1940s.

And yes, the fact that one of his comics sells for 100 times what a comic did in the 1940s is relevat. In looking at a typical online inflation calculator, something that cost $0.10 in 1940 should cost about $2.21 today (see https://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm). That mean's Pilkey's stiff is about 450% more profitable than those Golden Age books.

I can't speak for @justadude but it sometimes feels on these boards that we are complaining about the impending "collapse" of an industry that hasn't existed as we imagine it for more than 50 years, except in these strange little countercultural hidey-holes scattered across the hollowed out downtowns of America. We're wearing vintage superhero t-shirts and discussing wokeness, variant covers and the Previews catalogue for the umpteenth time, while the real comics industry is massive, and having a party with all the cool kids in a different part of town.

Yep...

If Dav Pilkey had done 'Squirrel Girl', all of the doom sayers would've went nuts and talked about how bad things are, etc. etc.

Instead, Pilkey has built an empire... his books are 220+ pages for $14.99 ($9.49 on Amazon) giving you some 4 1/2 cents per page value, versus today's comic book at 20 pages for $4.99 (costing you 25 cents per page!). Kids LOVE his stuff. 

And to be quite honest, I enjoyed reading those Captain Underpants books to my son back in the day. 

The truth is... what's being destroyed, slowly, is the modern speculation market. The READERS are finding alternatives to the silly superhero market. That's why Manga continues to grow. 

[Math Teacher]

On 11/14/2023 at 3:48 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

Truth usually is somewhere in the middle right? So, I hear what you saying but I think there is some validity that what others saying is happening and you are saying doesn't happen.  Maybe not as extreme as people make out to be, but its is def there.

#1 culprit, I agree....bad storytelling, but some of those bad stories are a byproduct of trying to be extreme and pandering.  Where even one writer flat out said, "if you don't like my politics then don't buy my book."   Think we can agree that usually is not a great way to sell new comics.

Steve Ditko was a big fan of Ayn Rand and objectivism, but it had no effect on my enjoyment of his Amazing Spider-Man run. I know that he wanted the Green Goblin to be "just some guy," instead of Peter's best friend's father. I don't know how I would have felt about that, but the Green Goblin was a good villain no matter what secret identity he had.

I'm not going to start arguing with you about "waken," because I find the topic utterly ridiculous. There is one thing that I know to be true: some people look and find things that aren't there. The converse is also true: some people don't see things that are there.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Math Teacher

[Prince Namor]

On 11/15/2023 at 5:33 AM, Math Teacher said:

Steve Ditko was a big fan of Ayn Rand and objectivism, but it had no effect on my enjoyment of his Amazing Spider-Man run.

It had no effect of my enjoyment of his Mr. A!

And it would prove to be a popular concept - the vigilante killer who is the anti-hero, who sees everything in black/white terms. 

[Dr. Haydn]

On 11/14/2023 at 4:33 PM, Math Teacher said:

Steve Ditko...wanted the Green Goblin to be "just some guy," instead of Peter's best friend's father.

I think Steve himself debunked that theory as a misrepresentation of the situation by Stan Lee.

[Prince Namor]

On 11/15/2023 at 4:48 AM, NewWorldOrder said:

#1 culprit, I agree....bad storytelling, but some of those bad stories are a byproduct of trying to be extreme and pandering.

All entertainment, especially on a mainstream level is extreme and pandering. 

Just because someone doesn't agree with it's message, or story, or presentation doesn't mean it isn't well done.

Almost all of this is subjective - rarely do I talk to anyone who has enough of an understanding of the artform to be able to say, "This wasn't done right..."

Mainstream Comics have avoided like the plague TRUE journalistic REVIEW - primarily because it's 99% repeated garbage and would be outed as such. The Comics Journal mostly stopped reviewing mainstream comics, because there just wasn't anything good to say about them. 

Are their good artists? Of course. Are their good writers? Of course. But editorial makes the decisions at those companies, not the creators. 

The point being: When you have an art form being done by a COMPANY who has no real creative aspiration, and is simply doing it to make money off of what knuckleheads that are left that are still buying it (i.e Marvel and DC), who CARES what they do with it?

Honestly, Marvel and DC could make all of their characters swear an oath to Hamas, wear Klu Klux Klan hoods, and use the battle cry, "Hitler Youth Assemble" and it wouldn't matter to me in the least, because a) it's a freakin' IMAGINARY story and b) Marvel and DC Comic books for the last 30+ years have become COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT. 

So anyone crying over Wolverine 'dying' or Captain America becoming a 'foreign spy', just looks GOOFY to me. 

No one cried when Jimmy Olsen became a 'Fish Boy' for one issue in the 1960's. All of this is just an exaggerated, elongated, extension of THAT. 

[NewWorldOrder]

On 11/14/2023 at 2:51 PM, Prince Namor said:

Honestly, Marvel and DC could make all of their characters swear an oath to Hamas, wear Klu Klux Klan hoods, and use the battle cry, "Hitler Youth Assemble" and it wouldn't matter to me in the least, because a) it's a freakin' IMAGINARY story and b) Marvel and DC Comic books for the last 30+ years have become COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT. 

 

Not sure that would fix the problem

[NewWorldOrder]

On 11/14/2023 at 2:33 PM, Math Teacher said:

Steve Ditko was a big fan of Ayn Rand and objectivism, but it had no effect on my enjoyment of his Amazing Spider-Man run. I know that he wanted the Green Goblin to be "just some guy," instead of Peter's best friend's father. I don't know how I would have felt about that, but the Green Goblin was a good villain no matter what secret identity he had.

I'm not going to start arguing with you about "waken," because I find the topic utterly ridiculous. There is one thing that I know to be true: some people look and find things that aren't there. The converse is also true: some people don't see things that are there.

Whats "waken?"  I might also find the term utterly ridiculous if I know what is means.

[Prince Namor]

On 11/15/2023 at 5:53 AM, NewWorldOrder said:

Not sure that would fix the problem

I don't think you can fix the problem.

Marvel and DC have pulled the wool over people's eyes for DECADES.

These characters have nowhere to go in comics. Anything that happens that is 'serious' (like death, or marriage) can easily be retconned. 

They've sold this repeated, regurgitated copy of a copy of a copy going on 60+ years now, to the point where the ONLY thing that has really propped up the industry is convincing the last of the buyers that its all somehow COLLECTIBLE. 

It truly has no future, other than as an IP marker.

[NewWorldOrder]

On 11/14/2023 at 2:59 PM, Prince Namor said:

I don't think you can fix the problem.

Marvel and DC have pulled the wool over people's eyes for DECADES.

These characters have nowhere to go in comics. Anything that happens that is 'serious' (like death, or marriage) can easily be retconned. 

They've sold this repeated, regurgitated copy of a copy of a copy going on 60+ years now, to the point where the ONLY thing that has really propped up the industry is convincing the last of the buyers that its all somehow COLLECTIBLE. 

It truly has no future, other than as an IP marker.

I honestly just buy TPBs now.  So whatever is good for 2023, I just wait and makes sure most people says it good and buy the trades.

If I was a kid now I do not think comic book single issues would interest me.

My first comic was basically the later part of the McFarlane ASM run.  Now I go into my LCS and I just see garbage, and meaningless junk that comes out every week.  Mainly from DC/Marvel, with a couple winners here and there.  Honestly the last mainstream DC or Marvel title I like was Batman's New 52 and Marvel Secret Wars.  I also hit my generation gap in 2008.  So I am not mad about.

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 11/14/2023 at 4:57 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

Whats "waken?"  I might also find the term utterly ridiculous if I know what is means.

It's the boards filler for a similar present tense of the word, so when you see the actual word it is actually masking that the boards moderator talks about.

Insert Debbie downer gif.

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by ADAMANTIUM

[justadude]

@Brock You nailed it. Thank you.

 

In a lot of ways I'm surprised why anyone is bothered by the collapse of the superhero comic market. After hearing years and years of complaints about how "my captain america would never . . ." isn't this a good thing? Those crypto-Maoist corporations will finally leave your beloved 10-cent nostalgia alone and you can take these characters with you to the grave.

Shouldn't most of the board be celebrating?

[troydivision1]

New comics should be $2 each maximum and feed into the corporation's media plans.
(write off the loss as R&D or marketing and save on taxes)
It should all be one vertical.
Instead of a $250 million dollar Secret Invasion series...produce a series of comics available for free that feeds into the next movie...
Then give comics out at the movie that continue the story until the next media event.
Heck, put coupons in the comics that have to be cut out to use at retailers for discounts on toys or videogames.

Also, only single titles / lines.
No more 12 titles a month for Batman...or various X-Men and adjacent characters.
Start producing them like series.

But none of these are going to happen and the industry will get worse and worse.

[Paul © ® ⚽️💙™]

People have been bleating about the demise of the comic book industry since Wertham raised  his egomaniacal head above the parapet in the 50s trying to blame comics for juvenile delinquency and violent crime, much like video nasties were blamed the same way in the 80s and video games in the 90s.

People love moaning and complaining and taking offence, a lot of them doing so without ever having actually having read or seen the subject material.

We all have our favourite artists, writers, characters, genres and eras within the medium.

It's art, and as such, totally and utterly subjective.

Rumours of the sky falling in the industry have been greatly exaggerated...to paraphrase a famous quote about something else entirely. 

What I'm quite confident about is this....whatever your particular preference, comic books will always be around, will always continue to sell, will always continue to generate silly money in certain quarters...and will always be a fantastic medium, and a truly rewarding hobby.

That will never change IMO.

[Buzzetta]

On 11/14/2023 at 9:03 PM, Paul (GG) © ® ™⚽️💙 said:

People have been bleating about the demise of the comic book industry since Wertham raised  his egomaniacal head above the parapet in the 50s trying to blame comics for juvenile delinquency and violent crime, much like video nasties were blamed the same way in the 80s and video games in the 90s.

People love moaning and complaining and taking offence, a lot of them doing so without ever having actually having read or seen the subject material.

We all have our favourite artists, writers, characters, genres and eras within the medium.

It's art, and as such, totally and utterly subjective.

Rumours of the sky falling in the industry have been greatly exaggerated...to paraphrase a famous quote about something else entirely. 

What I'm quite confident about is this....whatever your particular preference, comic books will always be around, will always continue to sell, will always continue to generate silly money in certain quarters...and will always be a fantastic medium, and a truly rewarding hobby.

That will never change IMO.

I think there is a very big difference between then and now.  Regardless of what people claim, the numbers do not lie and at least here in the United States, there has been a steady decline of printed media.  That definitely applies to comic books as well.   When you combine the shift in how we consume media compared to even twenty years ago along with shifting trends in what we choose to consume, I do believe that the genre as we know it the form of sequentially numbered bound volumes of paper is in serious decline and facing it's inevitable death.

The characters will continue on in some format of storytelling but I do not believe that it will be in a way that is recognizable to someone that picked up that first copy of the Fantastic Four.   Basically, the comic book as we know it will cease to exist but some form of storytelling will exist to continue the journeys of these characters. 

From Census.gov

Decline in Print Media (US)

Statistica 

[Paul © ® ⚽️💙™]

On 11/15/2023 at 2:33 AM, Buzzetta said:

I think there is a very big difference between then and now.  Regardless of what people claim, the numbers do not lie and at least here in the United States, there has been a steady decline of printed media.  That definitely applies to comic books as well.   When you combine the shift in how we consume media compared to even twenty years ago along with shifting trends in what we choose to consume, I do believe that the genre as we know it the form of sequentially numbered bound volumes of paper is in serious decline and facing it's inevitable death.

The characters will continue on in some format of storytelling but I do not believe that it will be in a way that is recognizable to someone that picked up that first copy of the Fantastic Four.   Basically, the comic book as we know it will cease to exist but some form of storytelling will exist to continue the journeys of these characters. 

From Census.gov

Decline in Print Media (US)

Statistica 

It's declining most probably because and in spite of technology.

Those people who don't like or aren't interested in the actual, holding, reading and even smelling of a tactile book will no doubt pursue reading material on their various devices....but for you to say it's facing an inevitable death is strictly your opinion, and not a matter of fact.

I give you vinyl records. The tape, the video disc, the CD....all contributing to its death knell.

Then Hey presto...people wake up to the fact that there's nothing like the warm earthy sound of vinyl. Now, it's absolutely huge, and arguably as big as it ever was in terms of albums in the shops.

There's life in the old comic book dog yet.

[Buzzetta]

On 11/14/2023 at 9:43 PM, Paul (GG) © ® ™⚽️💙 said:

It's declining most probably because and in spite of technology.

Those people who don't like or aren't interested in the actual, holding, reading and even smelling of a tactile book will no doubt pursue reading material on their various devices....but for you to say it's facing an inevitable death is strictly your opinion, and not a matter of fact.

I give you vinyl records. The tape, the video disc, the CD....all contributing to its death knell.

Then Hey presto...people wake up to the fact that there's nothing like the warm earthy sound of vinyl. Now, it's absolutely huge, and arguably as big as it ever was in terms of albums in the shops.

There's life in the old comic book dog yet.

While Vinyl is making a comeback it is not as a form of consumable media but more of a manufactured and marked collectable.   The debut of "Now and Then" immediately comes to mind.  Vinyl for modern music does exist but nowhere near the capacity of what it once does.  It's a very niche product.  The majority of music within the younger demographic is consumed through digital means or streaming.

The majority of physical format music being purchased is by a demographic of 45+ years.  (Source)  This group tends to mostly buy catalog music in that they are of older artists and songs.  The younger generation loves their streaming.  
 

Now, am I saying that music is dying?  Certainly no.  I also do not believe that "The Comic Book" is dying.  I do believe that the comic book in the format that we recognize and collect it is headed for an eventual demise.  The characters will live on but the format may not. 

I mean think about it, when the first Sinatra record was made available for purchase, "From the Bottom of My Heart", it was released on a record probably made from shellac.  Then Sinatra's music would eventually be released on vinyl, 8-track, cassette, CD, and after his death his music lives on being streamed, played on YouTube, and purchased via download. 

I am in no way saying that Sinatra's music will die.  However, I still believe that one day there will be a new technology in how it is delivered to us.  

I do believe that the storytelling event contained in a comic book will one day be more widely consumed in a manner that is different from the format we see today. 

 

 

[Nick Furious]

On 11/14/2023 at 8:33 PM, Buzzetta said:

  Regardless of what people claim, the numbers do not lie and at least here in the United States, there has been a steady decline of printed media.  That definitely applies to comic books as well. 

I get this for newspapers, but for comic books I wonder if the new sales volume decline might have more to do with the abundance of TBP's than with digital media.  When I was a kid, if I didn't buy a comic book off the shelf, there was a risk that I would never get to read it other than buying it as a more expensive back issue.  Now pretty much everything worth reading (and more) gets reprinted as a TPB.  I can be a free-rider of sorts...let other people spend the weekly money sorting out the drek, while I spend my money more strategically, choosing from the stories that made the cut by being reprinted as TBP's.  I suspect there are many middle-aged-to-elderly collectors who only read new comics this way now.