ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[Timed]

On 12/21/2023 at 10:27 AM, paqart said:

I'm not sure how that would play out. If CGC was any other kind of company, it would be possible to say CGC was "defrauded" in the sense that they were involuntarily induced to become party to a crime through deception. Literally, that seems to be what happened. However, because they are a "guarantee" company, whose sole mission is to certify authenticity and grade, it is much more difficult to claim innocence even if they are innocent. The reason is that they are claiming that each item graded by them is carefully examined to ensure grade and authenticity. That could not have happened in the present circumstance.

The only way CGC can be fooled by the fraudster is if they are not performing the service they say they are performing. The distinction between "grading" and "reholdering" doesn't fly here. At least, I don't think it does, because reholdering without checking grade and authenticity means they cannot guarantee the comic that goes into the new holder. Ergo, they aren't performing the service they are paid to perform. More than that, by not performing the service in these limited situations, the value of all legitimately graded slabs is called into question. 

This could be used to pursue fraud charges against CGC. Not because they knew this was going on, they likely didn't. The reason is that they had to know they weren't performing a secondary check of reholdering comics, and that invalidates their guarantee. That much, they had to know. I don't see a way around it.

Hot take; CGC has an easier path forward if they come out and explain this situation as a rogue employee being involved - even if this was not actually the case. Doing so, from a PR stance, would allow CGC to stand by their methods of "guaranteeing" books (even though we know how complacent and lax CGC actually is), and the blame would be shifted away from CGC as a whole. "We will take this as a learning lesson, and heavily screen our current and future employees..." 

[Silver Surfer]

I’m sure they are still trying to grasp the extent of the damage. Also, I wouldn’t expect any announcements until they are ready to provide a solution with the slab design to prevent this from happening again. 

[mephistopheles]

On 12/21/2023 at 12:29 PM, mephistopheles said:

I recently heard about a blue Hulk 181 that was cracked for cpr and was missing the stamp. CGC said they wouldn't cover the loss because they didn't crack open the holder, a presser did. I think CGC is in for a world of legal hell.

It was discussed on Comic Doctor's livestream. Apparently it was a Hulk 181 gold, not blue. 

 

[skybolt]

On 12/21/2023 at 11:29 AM, Timed said:

Hot take; CGC has an easier path forward if they come out and explain this situation as a rogue employee being involved - even if this was not actually the case. Doing so, from a PR stance, would allow CGC to stand by their methods of "guaranteeing" books (even though we know how complacent and lax CGC actually is), and the blame would be shifted away from CGC as a whole. "We will take this as a learning lesson, and heavily screen our current and future employees..." 

Honestly, that would scare the heck out of me. If it's a rogue employee, anything graded / reholdered since this employee was hired would come into question.

[Sigur Ros]

Well, the sellers claim that he had an inside man at CGC is clearly false.

Because if CGC found out there was an inside man, they wouldn't be commenting on this. 

 

Wait...

[MAR1979]

On 12/21/2023 at 12:43 PM, skybolt said:

Honestly, that would scare the heck out of me. If it's a rogue employee, anything graded / reholdered since this employee was hired would come into question.

yep.

They will follow their tried, true and only playbook; 
1) Say Nothing
2) Do Nothing.
3) Take in money hand-over fist knowing even those chattering in this very thread will continue to submit.

Don't expect any comment from Mike or anyone else in this thread. I'd suspect they have been told allow topic to continue until it fizzles out, which it will.

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by MAR1979

[mephistopheles]

On 12/21/2023 at 1:43 PM, skybolt said:

Honestly, that would scare the heck out of me. If it's a rogue employee, anything graded / reholdered since this employee was hired would come into question.

I mean which is worse, a rogue employee or a lax process? 

[Timed]

On 12/21/2023 at 11:43 AM, skybolt said:

Honestly, that would scare the heck out of me. If it's a rogue employee, anything graded / reholdered since this employee was hired would come into question.

Yep, but at least the integrity of CGC's grading/guarantee as a whole isn't destroyed. Easier to question books worked on by 1 guy, instead of every CGC slab in existence.

[skybolt]

On 12/21/2023 at 11:47 AM, mephistopheles said:

I mean which is worse, a rogue employee or a lax process? 

The problem with the rogue employee situation is that it also brings in a "lax in the process" situation to the forefront as well. For example, is anyone performing a QC of this person's work? How is this rogue employee constantly taking care of this guy's books without anyone getting suspicious?

[MAR1979]

On 12/21/2023 at 12:47 PM, Timed said:

Yep, but at least the integrity of CGC's grading/guarantee as a whole isn't destroyed. Easier to question books worked on by 1 guy, instead of every CGC slab in existence.

PSA has failed to detect trimmed cards since literally their very first serial number. Has not affected their business.  CGC knows this and will do nothing, say nothing, and keep raking in them Benji's

Edited December 21, 2023 by MAR1979

[mephistopheles]

Prediction #1: ALL reslabs will have to be removed from the inner well and regraded moving forward.

Prediction #2: The price for reslabs is about to increase.

[VintageComics]

On 12/21/2023 at 12:20 PM, jsilverjanet said:

(and maybe that's why they started scanning the books to begin with) 

They started scanning books because of a similar fraud that happened in the NW this year. People were caught manufacturing labels that didn't match the books.

On 12/21/2023 at 12:20 PM, jsilverjanet said:

the case has been known to cause damage, CGC ready to pay up for that?

Short of a book damaged from encapsulation, the case doesn't cause damage. Poor handling of a CGC graded book damages the book in the case. 

If you throw a book across the room and it gets damaged while in the case that's not the case's fault. 

[ThothAmon]

I’m no CGC stoolie but I’d like to give them some credit for allowing this thread. They definitely have some explaining to do but rank speculation without any evidence about what may have happened internally will definitely end the thread. 

[mephistopheles]

On 12/21/2023 at 1:51 PM, skybolt said:

The problem with the rogue employee situation is that it also brings in a "lax in the process" situation to the forefront as well. For example, is anyone performing a QC of this person's work? How is this rogue employee constantly taking care of this guy's books without anyone getting suspicious?

Aren't books "supposed" to be evaluated by at least 2 graders? I just don't buy the rogue employee excuse. This sure looks like a systemic failure to re-evaluate reholdered wells.

[VintageComics]

On 12/21/2023 at 12:54 PM, ThothAmon said:

I’m no CGC stoolie but I’d like to give them some credit for allowing this thread. They definitely have some explaining to do but rank speculation without any evidence about what may have happened internally will definitely end the thread. 

Borock's reasoning for having a discussion forum was always that it was much better to have the conversation in your front yard, where you can be aware of it than on some far corner of the internet where you can't. He was also really good at addressing public matters in a timely manner. 

I'm sure we'll hear something before Friday hits. Leaving this thread without a response through the holiday weekend is probably not a good idea. 

[DC#]

On 12/20/2023 at 6:57 PM, D Stuart said:

The plot thickens... again:

 

 

Apologies if this has been pointed out somewhere in the thread already - the posts are coming too fast to keep up.    

On the Hulk 181 9.0 from the video above - while I do think something like the swap out for a Qualified is very likely - I am not sure the book that Automatic Comics found is the exact one.     There is a lot more white showing on the side of the Qualified 8.5 than the Universal 9.0.    A lot more "white cheddar" as someone here once said.    And the top staple is clearly visible from the front on the Qualified and it is not on the Universal.   (last photo is of the 9.0 around the staple location)

  

[Timed]

On 12/21/2023 at 11:51 AM, skybolt said:

The problem with the rogue employee situation is that it also brings in a "lax in the process" situation to the forefront as well. For example, is anyone performing a QC of this person's work? How is this rogue employee constantly taking care of this guy's books without anyone getting suspicious?

Correct, but I think a "lax in the process" for employee QC is easier explained than a "lax in the process" for the actual grading/reholdering of books.

[Happy Noodle Boy]

On 12/21/2023 at 11:53 AM, VintageComics said:

CGC's main service is their impartiality and if that collapses, the hobby is done like a tinderbox because all the money that built it will dissolve,

The speculators will certainly leave, and prices will plummet, but the hobby won't disappear. Some of us just like old comics.

[Mikey C]

On 12/21/2023 at 1:00 PM, DC# said:

Apologies if this has been pointed out somewhere in the thread already - the posts are coming too fast to keep up.    

On the Hulk 181 9.0 from the video above - while I do think something like the swap out for a Qualified is very likely - I am not sure the book that Automatic Comics found is the exact one.     There is a lot more white showing on the side of the Qualified 8.5 than the Universal 9.0.    A lot more "white cheddar" as someone here once said.    And the top staple is clearly visible from the front on the Qualified and it is not on the Universal.   (last photo is of the 9.0 around the staple location)

  

It’s absolutely the same book. The 8.5 looks to have more white along the spine because of the white background it’s taken on.

[captainzombie]

This gets crazier, another Swags video.