ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[VintageComics]

On 12/21/2023 at 6:45 PM, sledgehammer said:

if someone had bought that ASM 252, 9.8 with the MJ insert, in an auction on comic link, does anybody think that they would not have been SOOL?

That's a question for Clink, but if I had something like that pass through my hands I'd do what I could to make it right. 

You can't sanitize the planet. 

Drivers are all licensed (certified) to drive and many things like injuries still happen. 

Insurance companies and authorities levy up heavy fines to try to reduce these injuries and yet they still happen.

People wear seatbelts and have airbags and injuries still happen. 

That's why I drive defensively, to minimize MY risk. 

Caveat Emptor. Buyer beware.

The world is not your friend, so educate yourself and navigate the world with some aforethought and you will GREATLY reduce your chances of being injured. 

This is a wakeup call for everyone and we all need those from time to time. Nobody is exempt because nobody is perfect.

Also, BINGO!

Edited December 21, 2023 by VintageComics

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 12/21/2023 at 6:48 PM, Axelrod said:

If it was a re-sub wouldn't it keep the same number?

And if you're saying, well, he could have cracked it out and re-submitted it legitimately just hoping for a better grade...remember who we are talking about now?

What are you suggesting the scam is in this instance?

[Heronext]

On 12/21/2023 at 5:23 PM, comicwiz said:

Yes, although he seems to have changed his name now (not sure if you guys noticed), In the eBay results it shows "briva3" but when you click on the listings it shows "Comic Selects"

You can have a different username and store name.  Store name can have spaces while username cannot.  

What you are seeing could be explained by that or maybe he cancelled his Store tier eBay membership 

[Axelrod]

On 12/21/2023 at 6:51 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

What are you suggesting the scam is in this instance?

This is where he buys a lower grade book (the 9.6 in this case) and then re-subs it into a 9.8 case that he already has.  Now he sells the 9.6 as a 9.8 and still has another raw 9.8 that he can presumably get graded again, and then...do it again?

[RonS2112]

On 12/21/2023 at 6:51 PM, VintageComics said:

This is a wakeup call for everyone and we all need those from time to time.

If there's a takeaway to this whole mess, this is it.  We are reaching the tail end (I think) of an incredibly irresponsible and lazy time regarding how this hobby has been conducted by folks looking to make a quick, easy dollar.  And the safeguards -- in particular CGC -- have not been safeguards at all, as it turns out.

 

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 12/21/2023 at 6:55 PM, Axelrod said:

This is where he buys a lower grade book (the 9.6 in this case) and then re-subs it into a 9.8 case that he already has.  Now he sells the 9.6 as a 9.8 and still has another raw 9.8 that he can presumably get graded again, and then...do it again?

Cracking out a 9.8 to swap in a 9.6 seems risky.  What if the actual 9.8 doesn’t get a 9.8 on resub?

[JC25427N]

On 12/21/2023 at 6:22 PM, WestcoastDAVEngers said:

I need some help here just cause my glasses wearing stupid eyes can't confirm.

The asm 194 9.8 Briva sold on 10/3/23 and the second set of pics is a 9.6 that sold on ebay on 4/29/23 

Wrap is the same, notch below the bar code is the same, the mark on back is the same (although it does appear on at least 1 other book) 

but the giveaway to me is the top, you can see in the hi-res photos that it has some red spray, and you can faintly see it in the 9.6 - BUT the white notch is in the same spot above the "CS" in Marvel comics group

 

I'd stick with the slam dunks...this one just seems like a 9.6 being cracked out and getting a 9.8 on resub (which even if its not, and its also part of some weird plot of slipping a 9.6 into a 9.8 slab and then resubbing the 9.8 to double dip, there's no way to really prove that in this case since you'd have to find the true 9.6 in a 9.8 slab...and whats a 9.6 and 9.8 to CGC can change 50 times a day so...yeah I'd just let this one go, its a much weaker/less impactful example)

Edited December 22, 2023 by JC25427N

[Mikey C]

On 12/21/2023 at 6:45 PM, sledgehammer said:

if someone had bought that ASM 252, 9.8 with the MJ insert, in an auction on comic link, does anybody think that they would not have been SOOL?

THIS. There would be no tracking it via GPA if it was sold in-person, convention, Craigslist, Facebook / Instagram. The 252 MJ 9.8 WAS listed on Grailz on Instagram but it didn’t sell. If it sold there, that book would have never ended up logged on GPA and started all the digging. Probably a lot of books he’s compromised that sold on those untracked channels. 

[Bo1983]

On 12/21/2023 at 7:00 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

Cracking out a 9.8 to swap in a 9.6 seems risky.  What if the actual 9.8 doesn’t get a 9.8 on resub?

How do you not understand the scam dude?

Edited December 22, 2023 by Bo1983

[agamoto]

Hoo boy…

so I use WorthPoint, which allows searching through historical records of eBay sales going back to the beginning.

i searched for a phrase briva3 uses in all their descriptions… "the $$$ and hard work has already been done for you”

the result? Over 1200 listings…. Hundreds upon hundreds of high grade books too. So many friggin spider-man 300’s.

This is devastating.

listings go back to 2015

 

[sledgehammer]

On 12/21/2023 at 5:22 PM, WestcoastDAVEngers said:

I need some help here just cause my glasses wearing stupid eyes can't confirm.

The asm 194 9.8 Briva sold on 10/3/23 and the second set of pics is a 9.6 that sold on ebay on 4/29/23 

Wrap is the same, notch below the bar code is the same, the mark on back is the same (although it does appear on at least 1 other book) 

but the giveaway to me is the top, you can see in the hi-res photos that it has some red spray, and you can faintly see it in the 9.6 - BUT the white notch is in the same spot above the "CS" in Marvel comics group

 

 

 

Just FYI. This book sold twice in April.

First on April 18th, for $864

Then on April 29th. for $1,010.

So I would bet he was certainly, at the least, playing shill games.

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 12/21/2023 at 7:04 PM, Bo1983 said:

How do you not understand the scam dude?

What am I not understanding?  Enlighten me….

[agamoto]

I take that back, the seller has ads going back to 2011

 

here is the first one

 

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/batman-608-cgc-6-hush-2nd-print-142919266

[sledgehammer]

On 12/21/2023 at 6:00 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

Cracking out a 9.8 to swap in a 9.6 seems risky.  What if the actual 9.8 doesn’t get a 9.8 on resub?

Depends on how many times he is doing this.

I already looked at one of his submissions where it was something like 10-9.8s

And one 9.6.

Edited December 22, 2023 by sledgehammer

[JC25427N]

On 12/21/2023 at 7:06 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

What am I not understanding?  Enlighten me….

It's a fright coward risk obviously 

Spoiler

context: originally Bo's post said something like: How do you not understand the scam dude? its fright coward risk but it's edited now and I didn't quote in time

 

[JC25427N]

On 12/21/2023 at 6:22 PM, WestcoastDAVEngers said:

I need some help here just cause my glasses wearing stupid eyes can't confirm.

The asm 194 9.8 Briva sold on 10/3/23 and the second set of pics is a 9.6 that sold on ebay on 4/29/23 

Wrap is the same, notch below the bar code is the same, the mark on back is the same (although it does appear on at least 1 other book) 

but the giveaway to me is the top, you can see in the hi-res photos that it has some red spray, and you can faintly see it in the 9.6 - BUT the white notch is in the same spot above the "CS" in Marvel comics group

 

 

 

 

Wait sorry, I didn't read this right the first time. If you think this is another example of the reholder exploit the seller is doing, you'd have to find an older pic of that 9.8 slab with that same certification number and see if the older pic shows a clearly different book than the one in it right now. The trick in this case (since I think the methodology is getting lost in all these posts) is that the 9.6 you found, was slipped into a 9.8 slab with that cert number and reholdered (retaining the same cert number) to make the whole slab "clean" again, and then the true 9.8 was resubmitted to have another 9.8 slab and "double dip". So if you find an old picture from a sale of that 9.8 cert number with a clearly different book in it, then you found another example. Otherwise it just seems like a 9.6 getting a 9.8 on regrade without that other picture as reference

It's different than the green label IH 181 example because the same book going from green to blue makes it obvious that a swap was done, so we don't need the 3rd picture as reference for that, and with the ASM example we did have that 3rd picture showing that cert used to contain a clearly different book

Edited December 22, 2023 by JC25427N

[paqart]

On 12/21/2023 at 5:51 PM, apoptosis said:

Nice catch.  I am trying to figure out where that contact box goes now.  Probably dead end.

Speaking of which, the WaybackMachine only goes back to April 2017 for this site. Maybe that is a clue to when this "enterprise" began. Also, they offer cleaning and pressing services. Meaning, they are comfortable with the idea of using equipment to improve a comic's grade. 

[mephistopheles]

On 12/21/2023 at 8:04 PM, agamoto said:

Hoo boy…

so I use WorthPoint, which allows searching through historical records of eBay sales going back to the beginning.

i searched for a phrase briva3 uses in all their descriptions… "the $$$ and hard work has already been done for you”

the result? Over 1200 listings…. Hundreds upon hundreds of high grade books too. So many friggin spider-man 300’s.

This is devastating.

listings go back to 2015

 

I suggest you grab screenshots if possible.

[paqart]

On 12/21/2023 at 6:18 PM, VintageComics said:

To be fair, CGC slabs FROM THIS SELLER have lost ALL their credibility.

That doesn't mean every slab is automatically problematic. 

I understand, you don't know which are which out in the wild, but just as when we saw the counterfeit labels in the NW earlier this year that were caught by more experienced dealers, buying from a reputable dealer greatly reduces your chances of a problem with the sale over all. 

I would have NO problem buying slabs from reputable dealers even now. Guys like Storms, Ritter, myself and many other dealers and auction houses have great eyes for this sort of thing. If I had any hesitancy, all I need to do is inquire whether they were slabbed or not by that dealer (I directly slab 99.9% of my books), or, if the dealer remembers where they got the book from.

Reputable dealers have a LOT of experience with grading and slabs and can remove a lot of the worry that this new problem has brought to the marketplace. 

This definitely is a problem, but this is a drop in the ocean as far as the entire pool of CGC graded books out there, and buying from reputable people OR knowing how to spot these things eliminates a majority of the relatively small risk left that thieves will always exploit in any field. 

If you're buying your things from someone inexperienced, or worse from a dark alley, you greatly reduce your chances of success...which is EXACTLY how the previous counterfeit slabs came to market earlier this year. 

This guy has what? 285 eBay feedback linked to these sales? It's not like there are 10,000 feedback and compared to 10 Million books graded, it's not an insurmountable obstacle to resolve by CGC. 

Plus the IG and other sales.

[Mr. Spider-Woman]

What's the crime committed here the part of the seller? Some kind of fraud, probably? It's clear something shady is going on but I'm curious what laws the seller has broken.