ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[BCR]

How has CGC not yet released the list of all cert numbers this customer has submitted. 
 

We need to find the actual people who own these books so that they can submit their complaint to the FBI, perhaps collectively. Every single one of these cases of wire fraud are punishable by up to 20 years in prison. 
 

CGC should aid in finding the owners of these books if possible, and work with them and the FBI. This is tens of thousands of dollars (at minimum) in fraud. We can’t stop until we find out who committed this fraud, who was defrauded, and they’re brought to justice.

[BCR]

On 12/21/2023 at 11:19 PM, zombielunch said:

are we even sure this is all on a single cgc account?

who's to say this isn't a group using multiple accounts to further obfuscate the scam from CGC's perspective?

It appears to be the same account judging by the cert number comparisons. One of the videos started numbering down from known fraudulent certs and the books appear to be books that the seller has on their eBay store. So it is one person doing this. And CGC knows (objectively) who it is. 

[zombielunch]

On 12/22/2023 at 12:34 AM, BCR said:

It appears to be the same account judging by the cert number comparisons. One of the videos started numbering down from known fraudulent certs and the books appear to be books that the seller has on their eBay store. So it is one person doing this. And CGC knows (objectively) who it is. 

if you go through the submissions are generally small like 8 or less books. i know it's one eBay store but i am saying the submission process might be more than one account to make it less obvious what is happening, otherwise this one guy is constantly sending in ASM 238 and hulk 181 in for reholdering (though i suppose the excuse he could use is "i wanted a custom label")

[Nick Furious]

On 12/21/2023 at 11:34 PM, BCR said:

It appears to be the same account judging by the cert number comparisons. One of the videos started numbering down from known fraudulent certs and the books appear to be books that the seller has on their eBay store. So it is one person doing this. And CGC knows (objectively) who it is. 

If the fraudulent books maintain the original cert number (which is how the scam was uncovered), I don't really follow how they can be tied to any other books?  

[BCR]

On 12/21/2023 at 11:37 PM, Nick Furious said:

If the fraudulent books maintain the original cert number (which is how the scam was uncovered), I don't really follow how they can be tied to any other books?  

Basically you type in the very number (say, ending in 4), and then type the next cert number down 3, 2, 1 etc. When we do that, we see books that the person has/had on their site for sale — and the types of books they typically sell. It’s not perfect and irrefutable, but likely. 
 

Again, though, CGC knows exactly who this account belongs to with regards to the books that we know are fraudulent re-holders. 

[BCR]

On 12/21/2023 at 11:36 PM, zombielunch said:

if you go through the submissions are generally small like 8 or less books. i know it's one eBay store but i am saying the submission process might be more than one account to make it less obvious what is happening, otherwise this one guy is constantly sending in ASM 238 and hulk 181 in for reholdering (though i suppose the excuse he could use is "i wanted a custom label")

Oh, yeah. I doubt they’re doing all fraud books. This is probably one or two fraud book per submission. So one or two fraud re-holder/custom label and the rest just submissions. 

[Steven Valdez]

Just putting out there that I've noticed CGC books that have been noticeably trimmed, while this is not indicated on the grade or label notes. I guess that's a different matter, as it's there in plain sight.

[Nick Furious]

On 12/21/2023 at 11:41 PM, BCR said:

Oh, yeah. I doubt they’re doing all fraud books. This is probably one or two fraud book per submission. So one or two fraud re-holder/custom label and the rest just submissions. 

I guess I'm not understanding how the old cert numbers from re-holders would have any relationship to the cert numbers from new submissions, even if they were all part of the same submission.  

[Nick Furious]

On 12/21/2023 at 11:42 PM, Steven Valdez said:

Just putting out there that I've noticed CGC books that have been noticeably trimmed, while this is not indicated on the grade or label notes. I guess that's a different matter, as it's there in plain sight.

Sometimes what looks like trimming is just a mis-cut.  I've had a convention dealer tell me that a book was trimmed, the dealer next to him argued it was a mis-cut.  The CGC grading confirmed that it was a mis-cut and not trimming.  

[Steven Valdez]

On 12/22/2023 at 4:50 PM, Nick Furious said:

Sometimes what looks like trimming is just a mis-cut.  I've had a convention dealer tell me that a book was trimmed, the dealer next to him argued it was a mis-cut.  The CGC grading confirmed that it was a mis-cut and not trimming.  

True, mis-cuts are always a possibility. They need to be checked by measuring the width vs height ratio.

[LightCycle]

We want a public statement CGC - how will you prevent this scam from occurring? 

[Changer]

On 12/21/2023 at 7:51 PM, JC25427N said:

I didn't keep the address and ebay doesn't give me anything about that order anymore except for my own address at the time and the tracking number which doesn't work anymore, but I think I remember it coming from Phoenix AZ, I remember religiously looking at the tracking at time since it was a big book for me at the time (It was the Campbell variant for Siege #3)

do you still have it, scary to have it regraded but maybe necessary?  

[Iconic1s]

Pretty much every reholder submission the guy ever did is probably a lower grade book that had the inner well cracked out/swapped.  That list should be published at some point and current owners should get to resub them for free and be compensated for deficient grades (that is of course after a thorough investigation, criminal trial, and this guy is rotting somewhere in jail).

If he was resubbing the same 9.8 over and over to get a new 9.8 cert # to pull his scam then the census is also garbage for all of these issues, and will probably never be accurate.

Looks like this guy jacked up Keys for a while.  The actual blame for this rests 100% with CGC IMO though!  They know it is bad too, hence the silence!  Regardless of a scammers intent, it was CGC’s responsibility to engineer a product (and their services) in a way that this should have been a heck of a lot harder to do… maybe someone gets lucky and cracks 1:100 slabs in such a way to be able to get away with this, but for someone to be able to do so with this level of consistency and get away with it for this long is pretty ridiculous!

This actually “should” be the end of CGC but it won’t be.  Just like acetate gate and other scandals that damaged the brand it’ll be isolated to this forum and a few influencers.  CGC is now too big to fail.  They’ll issue some kind of statement (maybe) and people will move on and most will keep submitting (I will).  Such a bummer this has happened! 

 

[DC#]

Somewhere in this thread there was debate about legal repercussions - here are some very recent stories from the card market where the Feds went after just these type of individuals.   

 

https://www.fox17online.com/news/local-news/grand-rapids/man-jailed-for-collection-of-fake-sports-cards-worth-over-7-million

https://www.kiro7.com/news/trending/colorado-man-82-accused-selling-more-than-800k-sports-cards-cards/7QEOL2Q6MZGXRLOFVPA27HFCVQ/

 

[migmtl76]

On 12/21/2023 at 10:47 PM, Changer said:

you wouldnt happen to have kept the address ? I don't but now may have to from my purchases. 

Holy but looking at the sales it'S all the same big keys, this guy has been doing this scam for a while !!!!

[Lightning55]

On 12/22/2023 at 12:46 AM, Nick Furious said:

I guess I'm not understanding how the old cert numbers from re-holders would have any relationship to the cert numbers from new submissions, even if they were all part of the same submission.  

It is confusing, and sometimes not even related.

The scammer might have bought a legitimate 9.8 to put the illegitimate book into its slab. All nearby numbers would be from the same legit submission, so not telling us anything. 

The scammer is likely re-submitting the legit comics pulled from the 9.8 slabs. Then, if the scheme repeats, that number is helpful to determine adjacent numbers that were probably destined for ensuing scams. So you have to check all and hope to see some common factors.

Reholders and new grading will never be in the same submission, just not set up that way or allowed.

[Jesse-Lee]

Not sure if this is helpful - maybe it'll jog someone's memory if they've bought from "Comic Selects"/briva3:

I know eBay currently shows that profile as shipping from Forest Hills, NY, but I found an old sales listing from 2017 on a site that showcased eBay auctions, and it lists briva3 as the seller, located in Jackson, NJ:

https://amazingspidermancgc.name/amazing-spider-man-678-cgc-9-6-super-rare-venom-variant-mary-jane-press-to-9-8.htm

[Nschenks]

On 12/21/2023 at 11:06 PM, Changer said:

 

I found interesting of the 2 unique reviews one was to a comic shop on ebay that was 20 minutes aways. 

ComicBookStation is a legit comic book store in Brooklyn. I've never been, but I'm pretty sure they buy and sell slabs pretty regularly. Probably just a coincidence they purchased one of his books (New York is a very big place lol).

EDIT: Sorry, I misread the reference to this store. Yeah, if zaneglor bought from them on eBay, I suppose it would check out that they'd likely have that address from their history

Edited December 22, 2023 by Nsschenks

[Changer]

On 12/21/2023 at 10:39 PM, Nsschenks said:

ComicBookStation is a legit comic book store in Brooklyn. I've never been, but I'm pretty sure they buy and sell slabs pretty regularly. Probably just a coincidence they purchased one of his books (New York is a very big place lol).

most likely, but they do have his shipping to information if they keep records, but more importantly so does cgc  

[LDarkseid1]

On 12/21/2023 at 10:17 PM, Iconic1s said:

Pretty much every reholder submission the guy ever did is probably a lower grade book that had the inner well cracked out/swapped.  That list should be published at some point and current owners should get to resub them for free and be compensated for deficient grades (that is of course after a thorough investigation, criminal trial, and this guy is rotting somewhere in jail).

If he was resubbing the same 9.8 over and over to get a new 9.8 cert # to pull his scam then the census is also garbage for all of these issues, and will probably never be accurate.

Looks like this guy jacked up Keys for a while.  The actual blame for this rests 100% with CGC IMO though!  They know it is bad too, hence the silence!  Regardless of a scammers intent, it was CGC’s responsibility to engineer a product (and their services) in a way that this should have been a heck of a lot harder to do… maybe someone gets lucky and cracks 1:100 slabs in such a way to be able to get away with this, but for someone to be able to do so with this level of consistency and get away with it for this long is pretty ridiculous!

This actually “should” be the end of CGC but it won’t be.  Just like acetate gate and other scandals that damaged the brand it’ll be isolated to this forum and a few influencers.  CGC is now too big to fail.  They’ll issue some kind of statement (maybe) and people will move on and most will keep submitting (I will).  Such a bummer this has happened! 

 

By your standard, every grading company should be out of business. If this can happen to CGC, it could have happened to the other grading companies and there isn’t anything to say it hasn’t. To want this to be the end of CGC or any grading company because one person or however many defrauded them is the bummer imop. A lot of people have their livelihoods in CGC. So to want CGC to fail is to want them to fail, friends you may have in this community who have potentially tens or hundreds of thousands in comics or more, now possibly worth a fraction of those amounts if that were to happen. People commit fraud all the time, doesn’t mean a company should close or anyone “should” want them to as you implied. How often do we hear visa or a credit card company experienced a data breach releasing hundreds of thousands of people’s personal info. Isn’t it their job, if not one of the tenants of their company to securely protect our private information? Do we call for visa or all credit card companies to go under because of scammers hacking the company? No. So CGC clearly has some due diligence to do and clean house if need be. There obviously needs to be repercussions for this, and the onus of that should be on the person or persons who perpetrated the scheme, not CGC. The end result for CGC should be a come to Jesus moment where they drastically improve their product and brand. It would also obviously be ideal if the people who purchased books from this huckster were made whole, however possible. I think that should come in the form of a lawsuit against the fraudster. He’s obviously done well for himself.