ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[skybolt]

On 12/22/2023 at 7:04 AM, GDN said:

I don't know if this was brought up but after watching Automatic Comic's video about the Hulk 181 with pg 10 missing, it is clear that in that example it wasn't a reholder scam like the others.  When Ryan shows the other 7 books in his CGC submission for the blue label 181 the grading date matches the other 7 books in that submission.  If this was a reholder the grading date on the reholder would have been an older date just like we saw in the ASM252, NM98 and Hulk181MVS examples.  So this guy is also marrying books.

Yes. I believe Automatic Comics mentioned the same thing in his newer video. Honestly, I think a lot of this problem stems from CGC moving away from 3 people grading each book. If someone is inexperienced or having an off day, they could easily miss something like this. With that being said, I'm really hoping that at some point someone finds examples of this person not getting his way at CGC. Even Ewert was not batting 100% with his trimmed books when CGC graded them. Honestly, I don't know how this evidence can be found. I'm sure CGC has the records needed to show they caught some of his shenanigans along the way or refused to re-holder his Mark Jewelers because the standard practice was to regrade them. If this guy got his way every single time (I don't care how good he is), then something is definitely fishy.

 

Edited December 22, 2023 by skybolt

[BEAUMONTS]

Besides the Scammy Douchenozzleness , of this situation it really shows the glaring QC problem at CGC.  If they miss this what else do they miss.  This is along with there normal hack and slash treatment of slabs and comics.

What is the point of grading if it's inaccurate and wrecks comics.  Hopefully this will bring back the none label chaser part of the hobby for raw dogging.  It will be interesting to see there PR spin on this debacle.

[trademarkcomics]

I just got charged extra for two books that CGC changed from Modern to High Value(X-Men 266 and DC Comics Presents 26...apparently worth more than $400???), so I know CGC is still active. This guy gets away with murder for years and I get "caught" trying to slip two comics by in the wrong tier? 

[Happy Noodle Boy]

On 12/22/2023 at 4:30 AM, LDarkseid1 said:

Heath ledger’s joker would be soo proud of this guy

LOL. (CGC isn't "the world" of comics collecting by the way. A lot more people buy raw than slabbed.)

And you're misinterpreting what I wrote. I didn't say I want the grading companies to go under. (I actually don't want them to go under, because raw books are that much cheaper because of them.) I said that if they do go under, the hobby will be just fine.

On 12/22/2023 at 4:30 AM, LDarkseid1 said:

And wow, that level of judgement and elitism that people who buy comics for monetary value don’t also enjoy them in other ways.

What I wrote was, "The people who actually like comics beyond their monetary value as collectibles to be bought and flipped will all still be here, buying and reading."  And you're saying that you enjoy comics in other ways beyond their monetary value. So we're saying the same thing. So maybe untwist your knickers?

 

[BEAUMONTS]

On 12/22/2023 at 7:51 AM, trademarkcomics said:

I just got charged extra for two books that CGC changed from Modern to High Value(X-Men 266 and DC Comics Presents 26...apparently worth more than $400???), so I know CGC is still active. This guy gets away with murder for years and I get "caught" trying to slip two comics by in the wrong tier? 

They don't miss the gougy money part of it.  Just the grading and handling part.

[skybolt]

Listening to 9.9newsstand, he notes that as a Mark Jewelers collector it's extremely difficult to receive a 9.8 designation on those books from CGC (they are very difficult to find). The idea that this much power is given to an employee re-holdering a 5 figure book and not checking if the Mark Jeweler insert is detached, is really scary.  

[sledgehammer]

On 12/22/2023 at 2:17 AM, Timed said:

Need to catch up on the last few pages, but saw that it's been confirmed that direct edition books have been swapped into newsstands.

Can you explain what this was about? I can't find another reference to it.

[RonS2112]

On 12/22/2023 at 4:30 AM, LDarkseid1 said:

 

I’m not saying Happy Noodle’s opinion makes me want to 🤢, but yeah it makes me want to 🤮. Talk about just wanting to see the world burn. Heath ledger’s joker would be soo proud of this guy. And wow, that level of judgement and elitism that people who buy comics for monetary value don’t also enjoy them in other ways. As if those people don’t own raw books as well, or read vintage comics. That’s the kind of vitriol this community should steer away from.

You know, equating the demise of CGC with "watching the world burn" is the kind of thinking that fostered an environment in which this scam was a lucrative venture in the first place.  There are PLENTY of us who exist quite happily within this hobby without needing a single slab in our collections.

[Sigur Ros]

On 12/22/2023 at 8:35 AM, comicwiz said:

The community doesn't really need more drama, but I posted on this YouTuber's previous video after I made the green to blue IH 181 find. Gave him a direct link to the forums, and in this new video, he found it? As I'm listening to the video, he's going through and iterating what's been discussed here, and making the analysis his own. 

Wow!

When someone makes a video titled "I found proof" then shows examples we're already aware of, you can be sure he's just trying to jump this train for some YouTube/IG clout.

Wrong guy to send info to. Also boring.

Send it to Davengers who is posting here.  Him and 9.9newstand aren't looking for credit, just giving the info.

[sledgehammer]

On 12/22/2023 at 8:12 AM, Sigur Ros said:

When someone makes a video titled "I found proof" then shows examples we're already aware of, you can be sure he's just trying to jump this train for some YouTube/IG clout.

Wrong guy to send info to. Also boring.

Send it to Davengers who is posting here.  Him and 9.9newstand aren't looking for credit, just giving the info.

Agreed.  AUTOMATIC Comics sucks.

Edited December 22, 2023 by sledgehammer

[comicwiz]

On 12/22/2023 at 9:12 AM, Sigur Ros said:

When someone makes a video titled "I found proof" then shows examples we're already aware of, you can be sure he's just trying to jump this train for some YouTube/IG clout.

Wrong guy to send info to. Also boring.

Send it to Davengers who is posting here.  Him and 9.9newstand aren't looking for credit, just giving the info.

Thanks man, I figured by sending info to these guys, it would show there's a bit of community effort involved in such an undertaking. I took him to task, makes his replies (two) and then deletes my attempt to respond. The second one has been posted twice, and both times vaporized. Posting for posterity:

 

Edited December 22, 2023 by comicwiz

[mephistopheles]

Just spitballing how the scam might have started. I bet he had a 9.6 and a 9.8 with a defective case. and he was bitter about getting a 9.6 so he decided to "test" cgc and swapped wells. When that got through, he figured he'd try a 9.4, then a 9.2, then  Newsstand, then a purple, then a MJ etc...Each time the book sailed through and he became more and more brazen and greedy.

 

[Stefan_W]

On 12/22/2023 at 9:12 AM, Sigur Ros said:

When someone makes a video titled "I found proof" then shows examples we're already aware of, you can be sure he's just trying to jump this train for some YouTube/IG clout.

Wrong guy to send info to. Also boring.

Send it to Davengers who is posting here.  Him and 9.9newstand aren't looking for credit, just giving the info.

Yeah.

That is how the You Tube game works in general. When you make a video with a title that catches people (e.g., "Huge Scam Exposed!") it draws in views and helps a channel succeed. An even approach used by Dave and some others is more of a slow burn that a community appreciates but is not rewarded as much by You Tube's algorithms. 

Edited December 22, 2023 by Stefan_W

[mephistopheles]

Question: has anyone here ever submitted a slab for reholdering and received a grade drop? Guessing not unless it was an extreme case.

[Stefan_W]

On 12/22/2023 at 9:21 AM, mephistopheles said:

Just spitballing how the scam might have started. I bet he had a 9.6 and a 9.8 with a defective case. and he was bitter about getting a 9.6 so he decided to "test" cgc and swapped wells. When that got through, he figured he'd try a 9.4, then a 9.2, then  Newsstand, then a purple, then a MJ etc...Each time the book sailed through and he became more and more brazen and greedy.

 

I am guessing that the scam started way back with the older blue thin cases that were shockingly easy to open. When cases evolved the scammer updated the process to work with the new ones. 

[DougC]

On 12/22/2023 at 8:17 AM, comicwiz said:

Thanks man, I figured by sending info to these guys, it would show there's a bit of community effort involved in such an undertaking. I took him to task, makes his replies (two) and then deletes my attempt to respond. The second one has been posted twice, and both times vaporized. Posting for posterity:

 

If we are talking about the same videos; he is also liking every post praising him for his thorough "investigation". Kind of unfortunate what people do just for internet clout but at least the information is getting out there.

[Stefan_W]

On 12/22/2023 at 9:29 AM, mephistopheles said:

Question: has anyone here ever submitted a slab for reholdering and received a grade drop? Guessing not unless it was an extreme case.

I have not had this happen personally but have heard people complaining about this happening when sending in books for signings. My personal experience is limited though so I cant say this is a trend or pattern. 

[comicwiz]

On 12/22/2023 at 9:30 AM, DougC said:

If we are talking about the same videos; he is also liking every post praising him for his thorough "investigation". Kind of unfortunate what people do just for internet clout but at least the information is getting out there.

100%. I really didn't give a mess about the likes, it's the same pattern on all soc med. What bothered me even more is that he was using the analysis from these forums and taking credit for it. Even yesterday, when I posted those screenshots, I asked for someone to post a clearer image than what I was able to pull out from WP. It took several members here to both provide images, and better juxtapoisitioning for comparison. There were still people chiming-in saying they weren't the same book, and because of all of us doing our part, it was clear as day they were the same. At that point, it's ours. 

However, when I see him using perspectives shared on here of how this is possibly happening, that's the last straw. And him responding that he didn't delete my comments is pure bs when I keep showing he's doing it with screenshots of my replies that keep getting removed. The latest speaks on why it ultimately should be called out for what it is:

[mephistopheles]

On 12/22/2023 at 10:32 AM, Stefan_W said:

I have not had this happen personally but have heard people complaining about this happening when sending in books for signings. My personal experience is limited though so I cant say this is a trend or pattern. 

Signings are a different process, where the book is removed from the inner well and handled by signer. 

[MAR1979]

Fish in Barrel Predictions:

1) ZERO Response From CGC today - Hey @VintageComics the Parent Company does not care about optics and certainly not about supplying a response before this or any holiday weekend.
2) ZERO Response From CGC EVER regarding this situation - letting it all fizzle out organically represents a tried and true playbook.
3) CGC will do nothing and change nothing with their slabs unless they find a way to increase the Newton Ring occurrences.
4) CGC Apologists will down play everything
5) Peeps will continue to submit comics to CGC unabated
6) Many more will be swindled by this Comic Seller/Dealer who knows how simple it is to exploit CGC process!
7) Other Comic Sellers/Dealers will attempt (and most will succeed) to duplicate the scam - they are Comic Dealers after all!

The only item on above list CGC is concerned with in any manner whatsoever is #5

Unlikely Prediction:

eBay if they see sales trend down in the Graded Comics category as they did with Trading Cards will institute a protection program for slabbed books over a certain dollar amount.

- Who will verify them ? As they already slipped through CGC, it can and will occur again.

- Unlike trading cards in theory they need to be cracked out and verified for completeness. Which is what CGC was paid to do in the first place and often fails at.

 

If I'm wrong my bold-ed predictions then great, however pretty low odds of that....

 

Edited December 22, 2023 by MAR1979