ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[sledgehammer]

On 12/23/2023 at 8:18 AM, GDN said:

The one ASM300 in 9.6 was probably a 9.8 he had cracked out to use the label and got the grade drop when he sent it back in raw to get a new 9.8.  You win some, you lose some.

You win 95, you lose 5.

[agamoto]

On 12/23/2023 at 6:17 AM, Timed said:

I am going to be honest, this does not look like a 9.0. There are a multitude of ticks that I believe would bring it to 7 or 8. AND, it's been reholdered I believe...

This one may need to be looked at more.   

Wow, no kidding, how can that possibly be a 9.0?! The staples look bowed and the paper holes are protruding as if the book's been taken apart.

 

[Mdesimone]

On 12/23/2023 at 9:17 AM, Timed said:

I am going to be honest, this does not look like a 9.0. There are a multitude of ticks that I believe would bring it to 7 or 8. AND, it's been reholdered I believe...

This one may need to be looked at more.   

I have numerous 9.4 bookswith more ticks then this book, and 9.0’s thatlook worse , it’s tough to figure out when it’s not a 9.6/9.8

[comicwiz]

On 12/23/2023 at 9:11 AM, agamoto said:

Kinda sick of doing this anyway... CGC doesn't pay me enough to do their grunt work.

That to me has always been the much bigger talking point. This community has been doing this for the entire time I've been a member here. Many of them are long gone, a few of them are still doing their thing. I can't even begin to imagine what the hobby would have looked like without the hard work people have put into exposing bad operators. Many of you may not remember, but in the early days, CGC put so much emphasis on ridding bad actors like Danny Dupchak. This hobby bogeyman narrative spilled over into a number of different things as the company evolved, and the recurring theme was to make P2P trading of comics safer. I've said this before, but all grading did was multiply the problem, and the field of bad operators went from a very small handful, to swarms and packs who continue to exploit every opportunity the slab product poses to eliminate raw, in-hand inspection of a comic. This is just one of many. There is no pay, no gratitude from CGC because this ultimately causes a bad optics situation for them, and while the wider community can sometimes frustrate these endeavours, especially when you have YouTubers lifting other people's work to flex for likes, all I can say is what you've contributed in this thread has been very helpful, is needed, and I thank-you for it.

Edited January 5 by comicwiz

[Nick Furious]

On 12/23/2023 at 8:11 AM, agamoto said:

Conclusions? 

I'm too tired to draw any. To me, it sure seems like a lot of 9.4s and 9.6's dressed up as 9.8's, but I'll leave it all here for others to decide. Definitely not as easy to pick out matching books like with the hulk 181s. 

Kinda sick of doing this anyway... CGC doesn't pay me enough to do their grunt work.

Take a break solider.  Smoke em if you got em.  

[Stefan_W]

On 12/23/2023 at 9:32 AM, comicwiz said:

That to me has always been the much bigger talking point. This community has been doing this for the entire time I've been a member here. Many of them are long gone, a few of them are still doing their thing. I can't imaging what the hobby would have looked like without the hard work people have put into exposing bad operators. Many of you may not remember, but in the early days, CGC put so much emphasis on ridding bad operators like Danny Dupchak. This hobby bogeyman narrative spilled over into a number of different things as the company evolved, and the recurring theme was to make P2P trading of comics safer. I've said this before, but all grading did was multiply the problem, and the field of bad operators went from a very small handful, to swarms and packs who continue to exploit every opportunity the slab product poses to eliminate raw, in-hand inspection of a comic. This is just one of many. There is no pay, no gratitude because this ultimately causes a bad optics situation for them, and while the wider community can sometimes frustrate these endeavours, especially when you have YouTubers lifting other people's work to flex for likes, all I can say is what you've contributed in this thread has been very helpful, is needed, and I thank-you for it.

I agree with almost everything you say here and really appreciate the work you have put into exposing scams like this one. Coming at this as someone who was around before CGC I do have a mild quibble with the bolded part - shady dealers were a VERY serious problem prior to professional grading and I can't get behind the statement that grading has made it worse. It has changed it a bit for sure as some adapted to include graded comics into their scams, but I suspect the bulk of the shadiest dealers out there have stuck with doing their thing with raw books since that remains the easiest way to con people out of cash. 

Sorry to focus on such a small part of what you said. The rest of it is Truth in my opinion. 

Edited December 23, 2023 by Stefan_W

[Mikey C]

If we believe that other people were doing this, imagine running this scam with modern grails? Much more consistent wraps and cuts so would be much harder to tell if a particular book was swapped. 

Let’s take Ultimate Fallout #4 Djurivic variant 9.8 for example. It carries an insane premium over lower grades. I’ve seen copies with 4-5 color breaking ticks but still living in a 9.8 case. Not saying those particular copies are “fake” 9.8s but it makes you wonder how many modern books might have had this same switch done to them.  

[sledgehammer]

On 12/23/2023 at 8:40 AM, Stefan_W said:

Coming at this as someone who was around before CGC I do have a mild quibble with the bolded part - shady dealers were a VERY serious problem prior to professional grading and I can't get behind the statement that grading has made it worse.

Just keep in mind that YEARS ago (bolded to imply many) restoration had nowhere near the stigma it does now.

[Heronext]

Suppose this scammer has a "legit" business tied to an eBay account that has not yet been named.  Should that info be made public here?

[sledgehammer]

On 12/23/2023 at 8:50 AM, Heronext said:

Suppose this scammer has a "legit" business tied to an eBay account that has not yet been named.  Should that info be made public here?

Absolutely, if certain.

[comicwiz]

On 12/23/2023 at 9:40 AM, Stefan_W said:

Coming at this as someone who was around before CGC I do have a mild quibble with the bolded part - shady dealers were a VERY serious problem prior to professional grading and I can't get behind the statement that graded has made it worse. It has changed it a bit for sure as some adapted to include graded comics into their scams, but I suspect the bulk of the shadiest dealers out there have stuck with doing their thing with raw books since that remains the easiest way to con people out of cash. 

It's not even anywhere at the level we are seeing with just this one, single instance. And I will say this much, I'm probably not done finding more. Look at those numbers, it's being alleged one seller, taking books that more refined collectors would thumb their nose to, and turn them into high yield returns via deception and fraud. How in the world do you equate a raw book comparison, when being able to flip through and see page 10 has the MVS cut out, or a panel from pg 14 is missing, to not being able to even examine the book in a slab? Now multiply just this one instance with all the scams that have severely rocked this hobby - and you may have been around long enough - but when @MasterChief and a handful of others helped put together the list of books impacted by the micro-trimming scam, I hosted that list on my site. If you want to talk about shade, maybe we should some day do it over a drink, because I was the one getting DDOS attacks on my server for trying to share a list with the wider community, to HELP them stay on top of books that were allegedly trimmed by Ewart. I didn't expect that those "invested" in covering that entire scandal up, who you might consider the good guys, turn against one of their own. But then we began to make better sense of why, when some of these books began reappearing with new certification numbers, and pedigree designations being scrubbed. The money those ever-so-slight grade increments introduced into the fray is the reason raw to graded comparisons of then and now cannot be drawn fairly, no matter how many bogeymans you line-up in the old days. So for this reason, and a plethora of others, which include not derailing this thread, I agree to disagree.

Edited January 5 by comicwiz

[Heronext]

On 12/23/2023 at 9:51 AM, sledgehammer said:

Absolutely, if certain.

I have some circumstantial evidence.  Someone with a keener eye than me might be able to make a more solid link

[sledgehammer]

On 12/23/2023 at 8:52 AM, Heronext said:

On 12/23/2023 at 8:51 AM, sledgehammer said:

Absolutely, if certain.

I have some circumstantial evidence.  Someone with a keener eye than me might be able to make a more solid link

Explain what you're seeing without naming names.

[Stefan_W]

On 12/23/2023 at 9:51 AM, comicwiz said:

 maybe we should some day do it over a drink

Agreed, sounds like fun and we should definitely do that if we are ever in the same place in the future 

[Kripsys99]

On 12/23/2023 at 4:15 AM, agamoto said:

Alright, some Briva3/Zaneglor Silverage worthpoint info mining for y'all. (You're going to want to scroll down to the JIM 83, cuz, hoo boy...) 

A search of the terms "CGC" and the signature phrase "The $$$ and Hard work has already been done for you." results in 649 sales, all on ebay which span from a Batman 608 back in July, 2011 to a New Mutants 98 MJ 9.6 in Oct, 2023. 

Another signature phrase used is the following phrase, "All Serious bids will be considered. If you Have any Questions Please Email me..." That's verbatim. That brings up a total of 813 sales. A look at every single one of the pictures from all of these auctions makes it clear they are certainly from the same seller, but possibly using different seller names. 

Here are some of the standout silver age books. Do with it what you will. I'm not implying that these are suspect books, but uh, yeah, they might be. 

Amazing Spider-Man #1 7.5 Universal 0099339001 Sold for $12759 on Nov 10 2016

Amazing Spider-Man #1 7.0 Universal 0307239001 sold for $12601 Jan 31, 2017

Fantastic Four #12 8.0 Universal 1393412007 sold for $9500 on Mar 14, 2023

(See the FF4 #12 in the new case, with same cert below)

He sold a restored ASM #1 in Oct 6 2016  0297867001

An Avengers #1, can't read the cert. Sold Jun 9, 2012 for $6659

A Daredevil #1 CBCS! May 2016

Here's an intersting one... Same book, different cert, different slab, signature series!

JIM 83 6.5 Sig Series 1013080002 Sold Dec 30 2012.

Have a look at this one sold Mar 17 2013. 

Small pics, but look at the Stan Lee sig, the dust shadow in the top right. The stain under the J. It's the same book. How is that possible? Only CGC could crack a sig series, only they could have pressed it, and only they could have given it the higher grade. Someone with a little more time may want to scour the internets for pics restored/qualified and signed Jim 83's. Might be legit. Sure would be a lot of risk for a .5 bump. I'm more impressed with the ability to sell it Dec 30th, submit to CGC, have it pressed and regraded and returned to him in time to have it sold 3 months later. Good work CGC!!!

Avengers #4 Old Label, sold for $5998 Dec 30th, 2012

Another Avengers 4, that looks VERY much like the one above, except with a date stamp added. Sold for $5595 Jul 18, 2012

 

Here's another Fantastic Four #12, Also an 8.0 universal grade cert 1393412007 sold for $4750 May 8, 2023

Same book. 

This guy "sold" the same Avengers #4 multiple times.

Jan 19 2017, $3050

Jan 9 2017, $2600

Dec 30 2016, $2750

It's clear from seeing the same book "sell" over and over and over again, not just this one, but several issues. eBay was either dinging him for those fees, or he somehow managed to get away with quite the non-paying bidder record.

Another book that "sold" three times. 

Ugh... There's too many books and my eyes are tired.

 

Yet another benefit of collecting DC - they're not worth the effort of scammers to forge grades!

[skybolt]

On 12/23/2023 at 7:41 AM, sledgehammer said:

What insider info are you talking about? The coincidence (that can't seem to possibly be} of the 2 books being graded on the same day?

I don't think anyone at CGC is searching Hulk 181 grader's notes for a good fit to switch data, but who knows for sure?

I don't even know if hacking their system is out of the range of possibilities.

Sorry, the info was provided in another message I was replying to. The insider informtion I was referring to was 9.9newsstand hearing from this guy that a higher up CGC person was feeding him data about how many newsstand or Mark Jewelers copies (I can't remember which one) were on the census for certain books. You and I would not be privy to that info no matter what CGC service we were using.

[VintageComics]

Well, that's that. 

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 12/23/2023 at 10:12 AM, VintageComics said:

Well, that's that. 

What’s what?

[VintageComics]

On 12/23/2023 at 10:16 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

On 12/23/2023 at 10:12 AM, VintageComics said:

Well, that's that. 

What’s what?

I'm starting to realize there is less intelligent life on earth than I thought. 

[VintageComics]

On 12/22/2023 at 9:42 PM, Steven Valdez said:

Has Jerno uploaded his take on this yet?? That'll be the last word on the subject.

About 30 years ago I was having a religious debate with a guy about the 10 commandments. 

I soon realized he hadn't ever read the Bible, he'd only seen the movie. 

So then I asked him a specific question about his beliefs, to which he replied: "I don't know. I'm going to have to see the movie again." 

I literally died on the spot.