ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[mjoeyoung]

On 12/24/2023 at 10:17 PM, OJ Pimpson said:

“Can sum up the Cole Schave scam in a few sentences”

 

- responds with a link to a thread with 5,000 posts  LOL

 

 

If I have to read it, then they have to read it. 

The start of it seems to be about pressing comics so that the spine fold is in a new place, so defects that were on the front cover are now on the back.

Edited December 25, 2023 by mjoeyoung

[Lightning55]

On 12/25/2023 at 12:14 AM, silent06 said:

Thank you for your thoughts and perspective.  I had factored in the possibility that after receiving the books back, he may attempt not to refund me for the books by conveying to Ebay that the books were not received back in the same condition that they were shipped and was planning to take pictures prior to shipping the books back, if returning them is the way I decided to proceed. I was also planning to contact the credit card company I used to purchase the books and file a dispute and fraud claim as an extra layer of protection.  Alternatively, as I still believe Ebay is unaware that this is fraud, I had thought of just filing a fraud/dispute claim with my credit card company, letting them work directly with Ebay, instruct me where to forward the books to and have them refund me under fraud protections. I never considered him keeping the money as a win, though. 

Ebay provide me a pre-printed shipping label to return the books via USPS Priority Mail to a P.O. Box address. I thought about adding an additional signature requirement to the shipment as that would require identification and a signature at the post office counter. I hadn't considered insurance on the shipment that would be and is a necessary addition to the return shipment. I am not sure what sending it Registered Mail adds or provides. Could you educate or provide me context?

With Registered, it is kept out of the regular mail stream, with a chain of custody under lock and key.

As for the pre-printed label, you will not be able to add services to it at the counter.

[Lightning55]

On 12/25/2023 at 12:25 AM, mjoeyoung said:

If I have to read it, then they have to read it. 

The start of it seems to be about pressing comics so that the spine fold is in a new place, so defects that were on the front cover are now on the back.

Wow. If that's a "scam", this thread is the crime of the century. 

[mjoeyoung]

On 12/24/2023 at 10:32 PM, Lightning55 said:

Wow. If that's a "scam", this thread is the crime of the century. 

Looks like it is all about bad pressing in all its forms, including shrinkage (Costanzas) and blurring of inked dates on the cover, and I guess the "scam" is that a lot of them were being graded highly (9.6 and such).

Edited December 25, 2023 by mjoeyoung

[Nick Furious]

On 12/24/2023 at 11:14 PM, silent06 said:

I am not sure what sending it Registered Mail adds or provides. Could you educate or provide me context?

My understanding of Registered Mail is that it is the end-all be-all of USPS shipping.  Used by miners to ship gold securely in the 1800's.  Packages are segregated out and locked in a safe at each stop until they go on to the next destination.  The USPS postal inspectors will immediately get involved with an investigation in case of a dispute.  They can bring Federal Mail Fraud charges against a fraudulent party.  Just the use of Registered Mail alone tends to scare off those who might be inclined to do something fraudulent.  If this guy has been using USPS for his scam, he's possibly vulnerable to federal mail fraud charges.  Using Registered Mail should make it less likely that he messes with you or give you the opportunity to bring the USPS postal inspectors down on him if he does mess with you.   

[Lightning55]

On 12/25/2023 at 12:29 AM, Lightning55 said:

With Registered, it is kept out of the regular mail stream, with a chain of custody under lock and key.

As for the pre-printed label, you will not be able to add services to it at the counter.

Forgot to add that insurance is much cheaper with Registered, because of the way it is handled.  For that reason, many times it is cheaper to send a high value item by Registered with insurance than it is to send Priority or any other method with the same amount of insurance.

They're all expensive, so when I say cheaper, it's a relative term.

[MyNameIsLegion]

Merry Christmas ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on?  thread. You're the grift that keeps on giving!

Edited December 25, 2023 by MyNameIsLegion

[Steven Valdez]

On 12/25/2023 at 12:28 PM, Sigur Ros said:

It's a tad hard for me to believe the company that puts out 9.8's with pages missing, 9.8's with the cover missing, etc., etc., is organizing some big sting 

Tee hee!

[Tnexus]

CGC won't go after this guy publicly. Why? Because if it goes to court, then it's public record how flawed their certification is. It also will publicly show how to tamper with their cases. Sure their reputation is tarnished right now, but it's in their best interest to quietly solve the problem without any acknowledgement there was one in the first place. Keep in mind this doesn't just affect CGC, this affects ALL their sister compay's reputations too. I suspect down the line we will see the end of reholdering without regrading. In the end that's more profitable for them anyway.

Edited December 25, 2023 by Tnexus

[Steven Valdez]

On 12/25/2023 at 4:17 PM, OJ Pimpson said:

“Can sum up the Cole Schave scam in a few sentences”

 

- responds with a link to a thread with 5,000 posts  LOL

 

 

What's funny is it's ALL THE SAME PEOPLE commenting there that are on this thread 10 years later.

[agamoto]

Shall we look at all the ASM 238's from eBay?

3805448018 - 9.8 NS - Sold Oct 20, 2022 - $3650 - Graded: 7/15/2021 - Seems legit

4109535001 - 9.8 Direct - Sold Oct 20, 2022 - $2513 - Miscut, sure looks like the front right corner was mangled in the case. Notes indicate finger bends and spine stress

4154321002  9.8 Direct - Sold Dec 12. 2022 - $2818 - Graded 11/09/2022 - Bit of a wonky wrap/cut

4137144002 - 9.8 NS - Sold Jan 23, 2023 - $2818 - Graded 1/3/2023 - Looks legit

4154321001 - 9.8 NS - Sold Jan 30, 2023 - $2901 - Graded 1/5/2023 - Pronounced bend near spine bottom back cover. reflection?

4199541003 - 9.8 NS - Sold Apr 24, 2023 - $3298 - Graded 4/4/2023 - Similar bend to the last book. reflection?

4137144001 - 9.8 NS - Sold May 1, 2023 - $3251 - Graded 12/01/2022 - Seems legit

4221342002 - 9.8 NS - Sold May 22, 2023 - $3179 - Graded 3/20/2023 - Notes indicate color breaking stress lines. Still a 9.8

4221342001 - 9.8 NS - Sold Jun 5, 2023 - $3000 - Graded 3/20/2023 - Going to assume that back bend is just a reflection.

4235257005 - 9.8 NS - Sold Aug 2, 2023 - $2850 - Graded 7/10/2023 - notes indicate light tanning to interior cover. Pic in census shows major creasing around top staple. Can't possibly be a 9.8. 

4265049003 - 9.8 NS CPV - Sold August 2, 2023 - $7100 - Graded 8/2/2023 - WTF??? The Grade date indicated on the census and the sell date indicated on eBay are exactly the same. 8/2/2023

4235257005 - 9.8 NS - Sold Aug 14, 2023 - $3019 - Graded 7/10/2023 - This is the same book sold on eBay August 2nd. Appears to be the same book as before.

4286977001 - 9.8 NS - Sold Oct 18, 2023 - $2583 - Graded 7/19/2023

 

Conclusions? With a couple of exceptions here, seems within norms. Hell of a lucky submitter and he certainly earns CGC a LOT of money with his routine submissions in the past few years. He seems to have a lot of good luck hitting those 9.8's on a routine basis despite some flaws one would think would drop the books to at least 9.6. The 9.8 Canadian Price Variant issue is a real head scratcher. Graded on 8/2/2023 and sold on eBay the same day? That doesn't seem right. As for books sold to himself, doesn't appear to be a lot of that going on here. A single copy sold twice, 4235257005, which also happens to be the worst looking 9.8 of the bunch and a grade that makes ZERO sense.

As previously noted, I don't have records of any of this dudes sales on other platforms, just eBay. 

[namisgr]

On 12/25/2023 at 12:17 AM, OJ Pimpson said:

“Can sum up the Cole Schave scam in a few sentences”

It wasn't a scam.

It was a systematic problem with overzealous pressing at the CGC pressing partner CCS of early Silver Age Marvels that ruined the eye appeal of hundreds of exceptional high grade books, by causing their covers to markedly shrink, the top edges to become like shirt collars with too much starch, the interior pages to stick out badly beyond the cover, ink pen arrival dates to run, maverick staples to become badly impacted, and the cover to sometimes appear rotated counterclockwise.  Despite the resultant books looking substantially worse than they did before being overzealously pressed, they received higher grades from CGC.  Having started the thread on it, it's not a topic that I'd consider especially relevant to the present one, which is why I never made mention of it.

This is an example of what happened to one of the nicest high grade SA comic collections known, when the books were bought by an auction house, overzealously pressed, graded 'favorably', and then put up for auction:

     

Edited December 25, 2023 by namisgr

[EastEnd1]

On 12/25/2023 at 12:14 AM, silent06 said:

Thank you for your thoughts and perspective.  I had factored in the possibility that after receiving the books back, he may attempt not to refund me for the books by conveying to Ebay that the books were not received back in the same condition that they were shipped and was planning to take pictures prior to shipping the books back, if returning them is the way I decided to proceed. I was also planning to contact the credit card company I used to purchase the books and file a dispute and fraud claim as an extra layer of protection.  Alternatively, as I still believe Ebay is unaware that this is fraud, I had thought of just filing a fraud/dispute claim with my credit card company, letting them work directly with Ebay, instruct me where to forward the books to and have them refund me under fraud protections. I never considered him keeping the money as a win, though. 

Ebay provide me a pre-printed shipping label to return the books via USPS Priority Mail to a P.O. Box address. I thought about adding an additional signature requirement to the shipment as that would require identification and a signature at the post office counter. I hadn't considered insurance on the shipment that would be and is a necessary addition to the return shipment. I am not sure what sending it Registered Mail adds or provides. Could you educate or provide me context?

From my experience, Ebay is VERY pro-buyer in these situations.  Once the postal tracking shows the item as "delivered" to the seller, the seller with have a short period of time to issue the refund (might be two days?).  If he/she doesn't, Ebay will take the funds from their account, whether that be their built up managed payments account with Ebay (Ebay may already be withholding large receipts in his managed payments account due to the high negative feedback he's received or because of the high volume of returns, or because they've become aware of this fraud situation).  If there aren't enough funds in the managed payments account, they'll pull from the credit card and/or bank account the seller has registered with Ebay.  If he claims the item was not received back in the same condition, he would have to show proof... pictures, etc.  Again, Ebay is so pro-buyer, it will be difficult I think for him to avoid issuing the refund.  Unless of course he simply closes everything and just disappears.  Not sure if you've done this, but definitely call Ebay and file a case with them so they'd tag/freeze his account to the extent it hasn't happened already.

[agamoto]

On 12/24/2023 at 3:38 PM, silent06 said:

Hello. I am the Ebay buyer that purchase the two Amazing Spider-Man 238s Newsstand from briva3 or Comic Selects  and possibly by way of ComicLink  an Incredible Hulk 340. I became aware of this scam via the negative feedback left on briva3 Ebay seller account and the podcast provided by West Coast Davengers and 9.9 Newsstand.  I also believe the New Mutants 98 book that was part of the New Mutants Mark Jewler scam that was discussed in one of the podcast is possible a regular Newsstand edition I won in an auction from briva3 prior to the New Mutants Mark Jewelers auction by him. I suspect at last minute he needed the regular NM 98 newsstand as after I successfully won the auction he canceled the purchase through Ebay.  There has been a question of briva3 real name, location and possible contact information. Based on the shipments of the ASM 238s, a conversation I had personally with him as well as messages exchanged and most recently information provided to me by Ebay for the return of the ASM 238 books to him, I have contact information for him.

In my attempt make a claim with Ebay, I also submitted a return request, as that was the only option available, through their resolution center noting that the seller had been identified as defrauding buyers and that I would like to file a fraud claim. My hope was that  using the term fraud would trigger a keyword alert in their system and that someone from Ebay would reach out to me directly. It was to my surprise on Friday that I received a response from Ebay stating that the seller, briva3, had responded and approved my return request for the ASM 238 books. This concerns me as I now don't believe Ebay is aware that this is a case of the seller defrauding buyers and subsequently attempt to take action against the seller. If that is in fact the situation, it ties into my other concern of the books from buyers requesting returns being shipped back to the seller and used later in some new manner to defraud collectors in the future. While I want to be made whole financially, if possible. I don't want the books to be returned to briva3 only to be used in some nefarious manner down the line because of lack recourse or actions that allow briva3 to slip through the cracks. From the perspective of being one of the buyer's impacted by this scam, I would much rather CGC request the books forward to them, make the concessions to the buyers and either retain the books or regrade them accurately to possibly be sold at a later date at the new correct grade. In conjunction with that effort, enact new security measures that prevent a scam like this and the defrauding of buyers, in this manner, from occurring in the future. 

I would like to thank Dave at West Coast Davengers as after receiving the approved return response from Ebay, I reached out to him and he provided me his thoughts on the issue I am facing in returning the books to briva3 as well as recommended that I post on this forum for the perspective, thoughts and awareness of its members. 

Below are the links to the auctions for the ASM 238s I won on Ebay as well as the auction I won for the NM 98 that briva3 retracted the purchase for. If you look at the feedback of the bidding history and feedback count of the buyer for the auctions, you can see they were all won by the same buyer. Also, I have provided a link to the Incredible Hulk 340 that sold on Ebay and then was sold to me via ComicLink a few months later. The certification numbers are the same but I believe the books could possibly be different.

 

 

ASM 238s

 

Amazing Spider-man # 238 cgc 9.8 1st App of Hobgoblin Stan Lee Newsstand Romita | eBay 

Amazing Spider-man # 238 cgc 9.8 1st App of Hobgoblin Stan Lee Newsstand Romita | eBay 

New Mutants # 98 cgc 9.8 1 st Deadpool Weapon X Rare Newsstand Ed. Wolverine | eBay 

Incredible Hulk # 340 cgc 9.8 1 st Newsstand Stan Lee Todd Mcfarlane 181 | eBay

INCREDIBLE HULK #340 COMIC BOOK SALE CGC 9.8 NM/MT

The two hulks are the same book. No swapping on that one. I'm surprised it's got a 9.8 based on that crease in the middle of the spine near one of wolverine's claws. You bought it on Comiclink 11/29/2023 and didn't buy it on eBay 10/17/2023? Not surprised, since this guy has a pattern of not completing sales or selling books to himself. Must cost him a bundle in fees. 

I have access to all his archived sales on Worthpoint, but that's only recording what he's sold on eBay. Not sure if there's a way to track the Comic-Link sales, or whatever other platforms he uses. He's moving books via multiple channels for sure, which amazes me. Where he's getting all these books and how he's getting such consistently high grades is another story I'd love to hear about someday.

As for the two ASM 238's you've won. They appear to be legit and not swapped books. The latest sale 4329914003 I didn't see recorded yet on Worthpoint but it's a unique cert to the other dozen 238's he's sold in the past couple of years. 4286977001 checks out. It's the same book sold on eBay as is imaged in the census.

So, if you received the two ASM's, as they appear on the census, and you received that IH340 as shown on the comiclink site and eBay post, then you've got three legit books, by my reckoning. 

[Heronext]

On 12/25/2023 at 4:02 AM, Tnexus said:

CGC won't go after this guy publicly. Why? Because if it goes to court, then it's public record how flawed their certification is. It also will publicly show how to tamper with their cases. Sure their reputation is tarnished right now, but it's in their best interest to quietly solve the problem without any acknowledgement there was one in the first place. Keep in mind this doesn't just affect CGC, this affects ALL their sister compay's reputations too. I suspect down the line we will see the end of reholdering without regrading. In the end that's more profitable for them anyway.

Worst outcome is that this guy gets a Will Smith slap on the wrist. He's permanently banned from submitting (which could be continued via third parties anyway).  The "know your customer" edict in banking is a lesson here.

Edited December 25, 2023 by Heronext

[Nick Furious]

On 12/25/2023 at 7:04 AM, EastEnd1 said:

  Not sure if you've done this, but definitely call Ebay and file a case with them so they'd tag/freeze his account to the extent it hasn't happened already.

 

On 12/25/2023 at 7:21 AM, agamoto said:

So, if you received the two ASM's, as they appear on the census, and you received that IH340 as shown on the comiclink site and eBay post, then you've got three legit books, by my reckoning.

Crowd-sourcing the advice and investigation is taking us into interesting territory.  Not so much a fraud claim as a potential fraud claim...and the potential for big value-losses based on nothing other than "recently tainted label provenance".  

[Paul III]

On 12/24/2023 at 9:14 PM, silent06 said:

Thank you for your thoughts and perspective.  I had factored in the possibility that after receiving the books back, he may attempt not to refund me for the books by conveying to Ebay that the books were not received back in the same condition that they were shipped and was planning to take pictures prior to shipping the books back, if returning them is the way I decided to proceed. I was also planning to contact the credit card company I used to purchase the books and file a dispute and fraud claim as an extra layer of protection.  Alternatively, as I still believe Ebay is unaware that this is fraud, I had thought of just filing a fraud/dispute claim with my credit card company, letting them work directly with Ebay, instruct me where to forward the books to and have them refund me under fraud protections. I never considered him keeping the money as a win, though. 

Ebay provide me a pre-printed shipping label to return the books via USPS Priority Mail to a P.O. Box address. I thought about adding an additional signature requirement to the shipment as that would require identification and a signature at the post office counter. I hadn't considered insurance on the shipment that would be and is a necessary addition to the return shipment. I am not sure what sending it Registered Mail adds or provides. Could you educate or provide me context?

I just went through this with something I sold on eBay that was returned to me. As soon as you have the return shipping label eBay has already taken the money out of his account and put it aside. I would also call eBay directly and ask there advice to the bigger picture. Maybe they would have you mail it to them.

[agamoto]

On 12/25/2023 at 6:13 AM, Nick Furious said:

 

Crowd-sourcing the advice and investigation is taking us into interesting territory.  Not so much a fraud claim as a potential fraud claim...and the potential for big value-losses based on nothing other than "recently tainted label provenance".  

Yes indeed. While a crazy blindspot in the CGC process has been revealed, there's no telling how many others may have attempted to take advantage of it, and there's SO many questions this seller needs to answer for, many of his sales that I see on eBay do appear legit.

When I searched through worthpoint to find more of this guy's sales, eventually finding as many as 1200 going back to 2006, I wasn't ever implying they were ALL suspect, just that the dude has some history with a lot of big books.

That all said, the extent of the fraud with the books that have been identified thus far is quite rattling. I think it's time to review the sale of some more books like these by other sellers. 

Edited December 25, 2023 by agamoto

[comicwiz]

On 12/24/2023 at 5:48 PM, Iconic1s said:

When this is all said and done (is it one person/group, legal action taken, etc) I hope that CGC can release a list of all cert numbers associated with that person’s/persons’ submissions and offer some kind of evaluation/regrading of those books.

History has shown they won't. When the Ewart scandal broke, it became the community's responsibility to identify using before and after pics which comics Ewart had trimmed to receive higher grades on his submissions. I'd stood next to the two at a show and overheard them boast they were waiting on 600 submissions through their company (can't remember if it was called VIA) It was quite a long time ago, but even in that scenario, I don't think we found more than 40 books, maybe 50 tops, although I feel it was closer to 30. Keep also in mind that was one submission too that I overheard, who knows how many books he trimmed. We do what we can in these situations because it's expected no one else is willing to do it. CGC likely sees it as flinging mud on itself to produce this info. In situations like this, it becomes more about keeping up appearances, minimizing the damage, and avoiding as much as possible what's happening to companies like WATA, whose graded game market has bottomed out, and we haven't even seen bottom yet because the lawsuit against them is still pending. 

Edited December 25, 2023 by comicwiz

[agamoto]

On 12/25/2023 at 6:56 AM, comicwiz said:

History has shown they won't. When the Ewart scandal broke, it became the community's responsibility to identify using before and after pics which comics Ewart had trimmed to receive higher grades on his submissions. I'd stood next to the two at a show and overheard them boast they were waiting on 600 submissions through their company (can't remember if it was called VIA) It was quite a long time ago, but even in that scenario, I don't think we found more than 40 books, maybe 50 tops, although I feel it was closer to 30. That was on submission too. We do what we can in these situations because it's expected no one else is willing to do it. CGC likely sees it as flinging mud on itself to produce this info. 

Welp, then I'm wasting my time even bothering digging up questionable sales. People are so addicted to the CGC bump they get from selling their 9.4/9.6/9.8's that they'll never stop throwing money at the machine and CGC will have zero incentive to change.