ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[DWL]

On 12/26/2023 at 2:26 PM, Paul III said:

Might have already been posted, but finally a reply from CS. As expected, but they are definitely aware.

 

Thank you for contacting us. I would like to confirm for you we are currently going through a full investigation into this situation. At this time we do not have more information regarding this. Rest assured once we have more information we can share we will let our customers know. I am sorry we currently do not have a timeline for when we will be able to offer more insight. Thank you for your understanding. 
 
I would also just like to personally thank you for reaching out to us via email. While the original post on our boards (now over 130 pages since it was posted this month) was a huge benefit to bringing this to our attention, we truly appreciate you and so many others contacting us directly via email regarding this. If you have any other questions, please let us know. Thank you!

Just want to clarify, and perhaps this is stated elsewhere and I missed it.  Who is "CS"?  You indicate receiving a reply from CS, who is that?

[agamoto]

customer service

[DWL]

On 12/26/2023 at 4:26 PM, agamoto said:

customer service

CGC customer service?

[Buzzetta]

On 12/26/2023 at 5:17 PM, agamoto said:

I did, yeah... Let me find the post.

As mentioned earlier, this is only including the sales he's had on eBay. He may very well have sold other copies on other venues he's confirmed to have his books moved, ie. comiclink, insta, consignment via facebook, possibly shortboxed, etc.

 

Keep in mind that he may not have tried to sell the books on Comiclink at all or anywhere else at all.  Those sales and attempted sales may be from people looking to unload something they bought.  We saw that with the Promise Collection how some books purchased through Heritage wound up on Comiclink months later. 

[mephistopheles]

On 12/26/2023 at 6:06 PM, silent06 said:

Based on what I have read in this thread and understand so far regarding the fraud and deception that are being used to execute this scam, my concern is that the ASM 238s I purchased are possibly either green label qualified books that do not contain the tattoos or have had the tattoos married to the book to create the ASM 238 Newsstands containing the tattoos, Not sure sure if the books used are truly 9.8s of some variation of the books I just mentioned as after he creates them and sends it to CGC the scans of his created 9.8 are what show up on CGC site when you query the certification number on the CGC cert verification website

It's doubtful he is marrying books as he would need to crack open the inner well and get it regraded rather than reholdered.

[skybolt]

On 12/26/2023 at 4:21 PM, MatterEaterLad said:

I'm not talking about a Blue book being switched with lesser quality Blue book. This Hulk 181 was originally given a Green label, then regraded to Blue, in one working day. You could argue this was a mistake, but that same mistake has happened with 5 other Hulk 181s all sold by the same person. The switch of either the book or the label happened at CGC.

I think what people are saying is that the actual 2/23/2023 grading date of the qualified book is correct. This book was graded by CGC on that date, no questions asked. However, an unrestored copy of Hulk #181 was graded 2/26/2023, but it could be a completely different book inside the case. Once the scammer bought this book (or perhaps he was the original submitter) let's say in mid March. He then did the whole switcheroo, submitted the book back to CGC in late March, but because it was a straight reholder, it kept the original grading date of 2/26, but with a different book in the case.

Edited December 26, 2023 by skybolt

[wombat]

On 12/26/2023 at 5:22 PM, Gaard said:

Agreed. The question that CGC is NOT asking themselves is "How can we correct this problem?" The question that they ARE asking themselves is "How can we correct this problem as cheaply as possible?"

 

[bc]

On 12/26/2023 at 5:28 PM, skybolt said:

I think what people are saying is that the actual 2/26/2023 grading date of the qualified book is correct. This book was graded by CGC on that date, no questions asked. However, an unrestored copy of Hulk #181 was graded 2/26/2023, but it could be a completely different book inside the case. Once the scammer bought this book (or perhaps he was the original submitter) let's say in mid March. He then did the whole switcheroo, submitted the book back to CGC in late March, but because it was a straight reholder, it kept the original grading date of 2/26, but with a different book in the case.

If I were going to try and pull off something like this, I would want to control both the original and donor(s) to maximize cash flow.

-bc

[MatterEaterLad]

On 12/26/2023 at 3:28 PM, skybolt said:

I think what people are saying is that the actual 2/23/2023 grading date of the qualified book is correct. This book was graded by CGC on that date, no questions asked. However, an unrestored copy of Hulk #181 was graded 2/26/2023, but it could be a completely different book inside the case. Once the scammer bought this book (or perhaps he was the original submitter) let's say in mid March. He then did the whole switcheroo, submitted the book back to CGC in late March, but because it was a straight reholder, it kept the original grading date of 2/26, but with a different book in the case.

I hear ya Sky, I do. I'm not talking about that book.

Read what comicwiz shared on page 126. 

A green book was originally graded on 2/24, then regraded with a blue label on 2/28 (over the weekend). It's the same green book, switched to a blue label, with a DIFFERENT cert#. 

This is making my head hurt. 

Edited December 26, 2023 by MatterEaterLad

[skybolt]

On 12/26/2023 at 4:35 PM, MatterEaterLad said:

I hear ya Sky, I do. I'm not talking about that book.

Read what comicwiz shared on page 126. 

A green book was originally graded on 2/24, then regraded with a blue label on 2/28 (over the weekend). It's the same green book, switched to a blue label, with a DIFFERENT cert#. 

This is making my head hurt. 

My apologies for getting the dates wrong, but my comment stands. What I'm saying is the book graded on 2/28 is not the same book in the universal holder now. That one was a legitimate universal 6.5.  if the scammer switched this book with green label one and sent it in for reholdering a month later, the grading date would remain as 2/28, but with the green label book in there now. 

Edited December 26, 2023 by skybolt

[MatterEaterLad]

On 12/26/2023 at 3:58 PM, skybolt said:

My apologies for getting the dates wrong, but my comment stands. What I'm saying is the book graded on 2/28 is not the same book in the universal holder now. That one was a legitimate universal 6.5.  if the scammer switched this book with green label one and sent it in for reholdering a month later, the grading date would remain as 2/28, but with the green label book in there now. 

Ahhh... I see what you're saying. I thought it was the same book. 

[darkstar]

On 12/26/2023 at 4:21 PM, MatterEaterLad said:

I'm not talking about a Blue book being switched with a lesser quality Blue book. This Hulk 181 was originally given a Green label, then regraded to Blue, in one working day, so no time for it to be sent to the seller for the switch. You could argue this was a mistake, but that same mistake has happened with 5 other Hulk 181s all sold by the same person. The switch of either the book or the label happened at CGC.

The 7.0 qualified and 8.5 universal were both graded in February. The photos show the 7.0 qualified being paired with the 8.5 universal label. That pairing was done after the initial grading of each book. The scammer re-submitted the 7.0 qualified copy with the 8.5 universal label for a re-holder and/or label update after the initial grading in February. The book wasn't re-graded which is why the grade date remains unchanged from the February date. 

It is impossible logistically for a CGC employee to be running this scam, there are simply too many steps in CGC's process for one person to be playing overwatch during all of them and on specific shipments no less.

The submitter has figured out how to either swap books or swap labels on books while doing minimal damage to the case so that his re-submissions don't always trigger a re-grading by the person inspecting his submissions. Other than that he might be marrying qualified and/or restored copies to frankenstein into universal copies, but that's all this is.  

[comicwiz]

On 12/26/2023 at 3:10 PM, sledgehammer said:

Did Joe already catch this one? I don't know, but it sold twice after heritage (2017),  in 2021.  @comicwiz

June 3rd $12,500

September 12th  $8,592.

Be interesting to see if the history can show when it changed.

This book doesn't appear to have crossed-over into my searches.

Edited January 5 by comicwiz

[whetteon]

On 12/24/2023 at 5:22 PM, comeaux said:

Because it deserves a repost. :)P

[pdags]

On 12/26/2023 at 6:23 PM, comicwiz said:

specific to briva3's auctions.

I found it using his older, "zaneglor" account name.

Edited December 26, 2023 by pdags

[Lightning55]

 

On 12/25/2023 at 9:59 PM, Sam T said:

I'm actually pretty sure Occam would be on my side in this 🤣

 

What's simpler, a scam that involves sitting at your computer and generating fake data with fake accounts or a scam that involves the kind of trial and error, insider information and/or physical craftsmanship that would be required to come up with a method of swapping and resealing?

 

If a person generates an ebay account with fake information and fake/stolen payment information, they can simply rack up debt on an ebay account without it mattering. Also, I don't think I've been charged auction fees for auctions that buyers don't actually pay for. When an auction ends, it pops up in "sold listings" immediately. It does not require payment actually going through. The only version of this where the ebay scammer has to pay fees is the version where he's only willing to do one kind of scam. But the guy who does counterfeiting will also do identity theft. Internet crimes are easier and simpler than real world crimes. It's has to be easier to generate fake accounts on ebay than it is figure out the secrets to CGC's encapsulation process.

 

On 12/25/2023 at 10:34 PM, Lightning55 said:

And what is the supposed motivation to create this fake data, or fake eBay activity. I don't see a way to monetize it. 

Is it to create fake market data, influence prices? Quite involved for that, to drive up values on books you are holding.

 

On 12/26/2023 at 11:14 AM, Sam T said:

You can say it's "more involved" but any plan that ONLY involves online shenanigans is a whole lot easier than a plan that requires a sonic welder.

 

My point isn't actually trying to prove that it's "a fake auction scam" vs a "fake slab scam" my point is that we don't need the conspiracy theory about and inside man in their reholdering department to hold CGC accountable. If people can make their own slabs or swap and reseal with the finished product looking so good that CGC can't even tell, then the real problem is so much bigger than "a conspiracy to reholder". If slabs aren't tamper proof then graded books no longer deserve to carry a premium in the market. And when CGCing a book doesn't provide value to the customer, their business becomes unsustainable. When that happens, whoever they're getting their plastic from is just going to bring 'em to market and sell empties, further eroding the value of CGC'd books.

 

There are 3 possible problems that fit the facts I've seen:

1. Slabs are not tamper proof or people are counterfeiting slabs (sonic welders aren't that rare). They look so good that that even CGC can't tell they've been tampered with during their reholdering process.

2. A bunch of questionable, high value sales of bronze age mega-keys were faked on eBay.

3. A grader at CGC employee during the reholdering process is upgrading and removing listed defects from books that either he or an associate plan to sell on eBay.

 

I keep seeing people talking about CGC needing to fix their reholdering process but that's not where any of these problems are actually coming from. Problem #1 originates from their slabbing process. Problem #2 originates from eBays flawed user verification process. And the conspiracy angle, Problem #3 doesn't start @ reholdering, it starts at hiring. CGC would have had to hire a fraudster and then given him no oversight at all for several years for #3 to be the problem.

 

Problem #3 is the Swagglehaus version and it means that CGC is a hive of villainy, a place where fraudsters are given the resources and room to grow and flourish...but I honestly don't believe that's the case. But problem #1 represents the real biggest threat to CGC. #1 being the case would be an existential threat that CGC could not survive. Personally I think #2 is the most likely, that this is a just bunch of dudes spiraling about fake data they found on social media websites (ebay included). I just think out of the possibilities of "fake slabs", "fake sales" or "inside man", #3 is the least likely and the most inflammatory allegation against CGC. You're ascribing the company itself has having the intent to defraud and that's just kinda implausible.

So for your #2, your favored theory, tons of faked auctions on eBay. For what purpose? Attention? This sounds like more of a conspiracy than the conspiracy you claim #3 is the inside man. 

Hard to be fake when some are landing in the hands of posters here. 

I'll go with "anything is possible". But your #2 supposition is last in line. Last among all the possibilities, not just these 3.

[comicwiz]

On 12/26/2023 at 6:41 PM, pdags said:

I found it using his older, "zaneglor" account name.

Can you elaborate more on this?

Edited January 5 by comicwiz

[universal soldier]

On 12/26/2023 at 5:12 PM, agamoto said:

I've looked pretty close at all the 238's and I think you're ok there, but holy hell in a handbasket are you ever in your right to question the legitimacy based on what's going on with the seller you're dealing with. I am VERY surprised CGC hasn't jumped in and reached out to you with an offer to compensate you for those books so they can be the ones to crack them out and verify. 

I think this is something that absolutely needs to happen

 to all the detectives here, completely fascinating watching this all unfold.

[Prince Namor]

On 12/27/2023 at 4:15 AM, MatterEaterLad said:

The dates in the grader's notes are hard to explain away.

A Hulk 181 was graded Green on a Friday and then Blue on the following Tuesday. There's no way someone got their book shipped to them, did the switch, and shipped it back for grading in one working day (Monday). There's someone doing this at CGC, then someone else doing the selling.  

And making some huge bank from it.

[agamoto]

Since I already looked at all the ASM 300's a few dozen pages back, I thought I'd go back and look at them all again, but this time look at the entire submission groups when those ASM 300's were submitted. Found quite a few suspect books that will need closer examination, some already uncovered such as the ASM 194 I confirmed swapped in one of my other posts. 

Well, popped a red bull and looked at all the CGC cert pages for the books from his ASM 300 submissions, and found some more suspect books to look closer at.

Notes. Those saying the date doesn't get changed on a reholder, I may have to disagree with ya on that, as these results seem to indicate when the GROUP submission's original grade date was and with much different grading dates for a few of the books. I also flagged the books that had images in the census before CGC announded in 8/1/2023 they'd be providing that info for everyone to enjoy.

What is completely blowing my mind here is the consistency with how often similar books are being sent in, and how consistent the 9.8 assignments are, especially with all the really rare books like the canadian price variants. Many of the 9.8's have grader notes that indicate bends and/or stress lines you'd think would normally disqualify a book from a 9.8

Again, this isn't an exhaustive list of every submission, just the one I generated based on all the ASM 300's he submitted.

Quite a remarkable track record. 

4071124001 - 6/01/2022 ASM 194 9.4
4071124002 - 6/01/2022 ASM 194 9.8
4071124003 - 6/01/2022 ASM 238 9.8
4071124004 - 6/01/2022 ASM 300 9.8
4071124005 - 6/01/2022 ASM 300 9.8

4106625001 - 8/10/2022 ASM 238 9.8
4106625002 - 10/27/2022 ASM 194 9.8 Newsstand - Suspect Book (date)
4106625003 - 8/10/2022 ASM 300 9.8 
4106625004 - 8/10/2022 ASM 300 9.8

4094947001 - 7/25/2022 ASM 194 9.8
4094947002 - 7/25/2022 ASM 194 9.8
4094947003 - 7/25/2022 ASM 300 9.8
4094947004 - 7/25/2022 ASM 300 9.8

4154321001 - 1/5/2023 ASM 238 9.8 Newsstand - Suspect Book (date)
4154321002 - 11/09/2022 ASM 238 9.8
4154321003 - 11/09/2022 ASM 238 9.8 
4154321004 - 11/09/2022 ASM 300 9.8
4154321005 - 11/09/2022 Batman 608 9.8 Retailer Incentive
4154321006 - 11/09/2022 Secret Wars 8 9.8
4154321007 - 11/09/2022 Secret Wars 8 9.8 Canadian Price Variant

4109596001 - 8/12/2022 ASM 194 9.6
4109596002 - 8/12/2022 ASM 194 9.8
4109596003 - 8/12/2022 ASM 194 9.8
4109596004 - 8/12/2022 ASM 300 9.8 - Suspect book... This one sold THREE times on eBay
4109596005 - 8/12/2022 ASM 300 9.8

4137132001 - 10/11/2022 Secret Wars 8 9.8
4137132002 - 10/11/2022 Secret Wars 8 9.8 Canadian Price Variant
4137132003 - 10/11/2022 ASM 300 9.8
4137132004 - 12/01/2022 ASM 238 9.8 Newsstand - Suspect Book (date)

4129851001 - 9/22/2022 FF 48 5.5 
4129851002 - 9/22/2022 IH 181 7.5 
4129851003 - 9/22/2022 ASM 300 9.8

4121886001 - 09/12/2022 ASM 194 9.8
4121886002 - 09/12/2022 ASM 194 9.8
4121886003 - 09/12/2022 ASM 300 9.6
4121886004 - 09/12/2022 ASM 300 9.8
4121886005 - 09/12/2022 ASM 238 9.8
4121886006 - 09/12/2022 Secret Wars 8 9.8

4199541001 - 02/08/2023 ASM 194 9.8 Suspect Book, has image/custom label, prior to 8/1/2023
4199541002 - 02/08/2023 ASM 194 9.8 
4199541003 - 04/04/2023 ASM 238 9.8 Newsstand - Suspect Book (date)
4199541004 - 10/30/2023 ASM 300 9.8 Newsstand - Suspect Book (date)
4199541005 - 02/08/2023 ASM 300 9.8
4199541006 - 02/08/2023 Secret Wars 8 9.8

4148457001 - 11/01/2022 ASM 300 9.8
4148457002 - 11/01/2022 ASM 194 9.6
4148457003 - 11/01/2022 ASM 129 8.5 Suspect Book, has image/custom label, prior to 8/1/2023

4221342001 - 3/20/2023 ASM 238 9.8
4221342002 - 3/20/2023 ASM 238 9.8
4221342003 - 3/20/2023 ASM 252 9.8
4221342004 - 3/20/2023 IH 340 9.8
4221342005 - 3/20/2023 ASM 300 9.8 - Suspect Book, sold multiple times on Ebay
4221342006 - 3/20/2023 Secret Wars 8 9.8 Newsstand

4245189001 - 5/1/2023 Secret Wars 8 9.8 Newsstand
4245189002 - 5/1/2023 IH 181 9.0 - Suspect Book, has image/custom label prior to 8/1/2023
4245189003 - 5/1/2023 ASM 300 9.8
4245189004 - 5/1/2023 ASM 300 9.8
4245189005 - 5/1/2023 Captain America 261 9.8 - Quadruple Cover

4265049001 - 6/2/2023 - Secret Wars 8 9.8 Canadian Price Variant
4265049002 - 6/26/2023 - ASM 238 9.8 Newsstand - Suspect Book, date, and image in census shows a Canadian PV. Label Wrong 
4265049003 - 8/2/2023 - ASM 238 9.8 Newsstand - Suspect, date, Canadian Price Variant, it's imaged, Not the same book as cert#4265049002
4265049004 - 6/2/2023 - ASM 194 9.8 - Suspect, it's imaged in Census prior to 8/1/2023
4265049005 - 6/26/2023 - IH 340 9.8 Newsstand - Suspect, date/imaged prior to 8/1/2023
4265049006 - 6/2/2023 - ASM 300 9.8

4252433001 - 6/14/2023 - ASM 238 9.8 Newsstand - Suspect, imaged in census prior to 8/1/2023
4252433002 - 5/11/2023 - ASM 238 9.8
4252433003 - 5/11/2023 - ASM 252 9.8
4252433004 - 6/14/2023 - Secret Wars 8 Newsstand Canadian Price Variant - suspect Imaged in Census prior to 8/1/2023
4252433005 - 5/11/2023 - ASM 194 9.8
4252433006 - 5/11/2023 - IH 340 9.8
4252433007 - 5/11/2023 - ASM 300 9.8
 
4153803001 - 11/18/2022 - UF 4 - 9.6
4153803002 - 11/18/2022 - UF 4 - 9.4
4153803003 - 11/18/2022 - UF 4 - 9.8
4153803004 - 11/18/2022 - ASM 300 - 9.6
4153803005 - 11/18/2022 - Batman Adventures 12 9.8
4153803006 - 11/18/2022 - Detective Comics 411 8.5

4324007001 - 9/13/2023 - X-Men 266 9.8
4324007002 - 9/13/2023 - X-Men 266 9.8
4324007003 - 9/13/2023 - ASM 252 9.8 Newsstand
4324007004 - 9/13/2023 - Secret Wars 8 Newsstand 
4324007005 - 9/13/2023 - ASM 300 9.8
4324007006 - 9/13/2023 - ASM 300 9.8
4324007007 - 9/13/2023 - ASM 300 9.8

4287881001 - 7/19/2023 - ASM 194 9.8 Newsstand, Suspect, Imaged prior to 8/1/2023
4287881002 - 7/19/2023 - ASM 300 9.6 Suspect, Imaged in Census prior to 8/1/2023
4287881003 - 7/19/2023 - ASM 300 9.8 Suspect, Imaged in Census prior to 8/1/2023