ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[Stefan_W]

On 12/28/2023 at 11:03 AM, BrashL said:

Good to see them finally respond, and not surprised as Mike's statement was definitely run by some lawyers before he posted. Liability has to be a huge concern right now. As others have stated, a few hundred books may be related to one individual but realistically the number probably can never be known due to the ease at which the slabs can be opened and switched out. I think we have to assume the worst. 

The changes to the case people have suggested are all good and something must be changed, but that still leaves the issue of all the books in older cases which would rightly be devalued against the new ones. I think a reasonable compromise is CGC should offer discounted reholdering for any slab with checks for tampering either in the case itself or in the chain of custody. If issues are found they can compensate the difference (in cash, not CGC bucks!) and if not the book will now have the correct market value. Slowly you'd clean up the supply and do right by customers. It's probably gonna cost them but there's no way around that at this point.

Yeah, this also ran through my mind when news of the scam broke. There are ways of fixing the cases to make them tamper proof, but the thousand or so cases I already own will no longer be as desirable. That is a critical part of this story moving forward. 

[MatterEaterLad]

On 12/27/2023 at 9:51 PM, skybolt said:

Starting at 1:30:18 and 1:33:18 in this video, 9.9newsstand provides some very interesting insight on the scammer.

 

So if we believe the video, the guy doing this is a dealer. 

Probably worth exploring if certain dealers get special treatment at CGC. I always assumed big dealers can get books pushed to the front of the grading line. But are they given a pass on regrading? 

[Buzzetta]

On 12/28/2023 at 11:10 AM, BrashL said:

I don't think changes to the case of that nature are the answer anyway, it just creates a new arms race and no system is unbreakable, at least not at a cost that makes the business viable. The solution here is pretty simple actually and I hope they implement something similar:

• Every book gets Grader Notes, every single one (OK maybe not a 10)
• Every single book gets a high res picture front and back
• Every note related to the cover or back of the book is annotated in the picture, with the defect circled, marked, whatever

Essentially create a unique fingerprint for every comic, which is essentially what this board has been doing for a week now. Not only do you ensure the integrity of the slab, you ensure the integrity of the grade itself. This would take a little more time, but to be honest this is the bare minimum of what a grader should be doing now considering how much value they are adding (or subtracting) from a book. If they did this, I could care less how easy the case is to open. 

This is most likely the way to go.   Hi resolution scans of both front and back showcasing indicators might be the only viable solution. 

Now, the next step is to improve the wifi and the cellular problems at shows  

[drotto]

On 12/28/2023 at 11:05 AM, Dr. Balls said:

Thermochromic pigment will fade over time when exposed to UV (which, arguably, no one should be doing in the first place), but I don't know if there is a discoloration involved as time goes on. Worth finding out, though - because no one would want that - however, if the pigment was applied to the post inserts and post, there would likely be not much of an issue - as long as the discoloration did not appear to be the same shade as the "tamper" color.

I have stated it before, and it is just my suggestions.  Every inner well has the certification number and possible the book and issue etched or stamped on it. Possibly include an RFID chip on the label as well as inside the inner well to help identify the book. Increase the overall strength of the welding of the case insuring it will break if opening is attempted. Make all reholders subject to regrading. High grade publically availible images of all submitted books, and full records every time CGC handles the book, or makes changes to the label and case.

[wiparker824]

On 12/28/2023 at 9:10 AM, BrashL said:

I don't think changes to the case of that nature are the answer anyway, it just creates a new arms race and no system is unbreakable, at least not at a cost that makes the business viable. The solution here is pretty simple actually and I hope they implement something similar:

• Every book gets Grader Notes, every single one (OK maybe not a 10)
• Every single book gets a high res picture front and back
• Every note related to the cover or back of the book is annotated in the picture, with the defect circled, marked, whatever

Essentially create a unique fingerprint for every comic, which is essentially what this board has been doing for a week now. Not only do you ensure the integrity of the slab, you ensure the integrity of the grade itself. This would take a little more time, but to be honest this is the bare minimum of what a grader should be doing now considering how much value they are adding (or subtracting) from a book. If they did this, I could care less how easy the case is to open. 

I’d also add every book that has been reholdered has a date of when the reholder took place, preferably with images before and after of the reholdered book. Not to demonize all books that have been reholdered, I’ve done it to a chipped slab or two in my PC but at least as a buyer you have as much information as possible and can take whatever risk you’re willing to take.

[Dr. Balls]

On 12/28/2023 at 9:10 AM, Buzzetta said:

Now, what do you do about the other million or so slabs out there before that?  My collection is now worthless because the validity is challenged due to the slabs NOT having this feature?  

This is a real problem no matter what they do moving forward. 

Absolutely. The problem now affects 80 million slabs (or whatever that number is). There's no fixing it - the only solution is a band-aid solution that gives people the semblance of security - which is likely the documentation issue I spoke about earlier. CGC can't recall every single slab they've ever produced.

At this point, my guess is that it's going to fall under an insurance-type odds-and-probability scenario. The odds being: how much will they pay out in damages on this issue compared to the probability of people who might never know their books have been compromised and never follow up with CGC on a as-yet unknown tampered book. The cost of recall versus the cost of letting it play out.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Dr. Balls

[BrashL]

On 12/28/2023 at 10:10 AM, Stefan_W said:

Yeah, this also ran through my mind when news of the scam broke. There are ways of fixing the cases to make them tamper proof, but the thousand or so cases I already own will no longer be as desirable. That is a critical part of this story moving forward. 

And now that they’re going to make “changes” going forward, you’d have to be nuts to submit a book before they are implemented. 

[sd2416]

 
 

 

[pdags]

On 12/28/2023 at 11:08 AM, drotto said:

I trust the individuals will be prosecuted, but stand by my initial statement.

I do respect your opinion, but what's not being said is there may be other entities involved already working with law enforcement agencies.  If more than one agency is involved, they would like to be aware of each other, etc.

CGC isn't the only victim in all of this and, honestly, there's enough evidence that this should be reported with or without their involvement.  Also, what if an individual victim is following this thread but unwilling to come forth publicly.  They may have already called the police/FBI/ebay/etc.

 

[ADAMANTIUM]

One thing that comes to mind...

Will any upgrades to tamper proof it, will it become public knowledge?

@Buzzettas does cgc have to let us know? That thought crossed my mind to avoid scammers, but I don't know any legalities 

Edited December 28, 2023 by ADAMANTIUM

[Stefan_W]

On 12/28/2023 at 11:21 AM, BrashL said:

And now that they’re going to make “changes” going forward, you’d have to be nuts to submit a book before they are implemented. 

Depends on what the changes are. If they find a retrofit solution using the current slabs and inner sleeves they can implement it quickly even as a stop-gap solution. If they do something like encasing the label in the sleeve it would involve a redesign of cases and sleeves followed by the manufacturing time to make the new product. That is not a short process. 

It will definitely be interesting to watch moving forward. 

[comeaux]

[Dr. Balls]

On 12/28/2023 at 9:13 AM, drotto said:

I have stated it before, and it is just my suggestions.  Every inner well has the certification number and possible the book and issue etched or stamped on it. Possibly include an RFID chip on the label as well as inside the inner well to help identify the book. Increase the overall strength of the welding of the case insuring it will break if opening is attempted. Make all reholders subject to regrading. High grade publically availible images of all submitted books, and full records every time CGC handles the book, or makes changes to the label and case.

I like the RFID chip scenario - it will obviously increase the price, but that's likely going to happen anyway with whatever new security measures they put forth. If they created something that could be scanned and confirmed quickly (by a buyer) - that would go a long way, and not really be that big of a deal. I look up cert numbers on every slab I buy anyway to look at grader's notes, so one more step wouldn't be a hassle just to confirm what I'm buying.

Sealing the certification in the well is also a possibility, that way in order to switch labels, you'll have to ruin the integrity of the well to do so. It's been awhile since I cracked a case, I don't know if they already do that, though.

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/28/2023 at 10:26 AM, ADAMANTIUM said:

One thing that comes to mind...

Will any upgrades to tamper proof it, will it become public knowledge?

@Buzzettas does cgc have to let us know? That thought crossed my mind to avoid scammers, but I don't know any legalities 

I'm not really sure how they could do it without it becoming apparent to someone, and they'd probably like the public to know what to look for etc, just a thought

[MAR1979]

On 12/28/2023 at 10:44 AM, ADAMANTIUM said:

Those awful tamper proof stickers on the sides of the case where it presses together would work.

If a drop happened and chipped a case, the likely hood of case separation wouldn't be all that likely, or not enough to make the tamper proof stickers separate

Sure you wouldn't be able to open the sides to remove newton rings, but one on each side in the middle where the case presses together anyway would work. If the sticker shows ware an automatic regrading needed.

Simple and effective, but idk, just a thought  

Ofttimes low tech and analog protections are the most difficult to defeat.

Seems to me CGC or any top Tier grading service needs a dept akin to what the US Secret Service does for the US Treasury and that is; prevent, detect, investigate and go after counterfeiters and rouge insiders.   If CGC does have one of those departments, then frankly they have failed

Edited December 28, 2023 by MAR1979

[wombat]

On 12/28/2023 at 11:29 AM, ADAMANTIUM said:

On 12/28/2023 at 11:26 AM, ADAMANTIUM said:

One thing that comes to mind...

Will any upgrades to tamper proof it, will it become public knowledge?

@Buzzettas does cgc have to let us know? That thought crossed my mind to avoid scammers, but I don't know any legalities 

I'm not really sure how they could do it without it becoming apparent to someone, and they'd probably like the public to know what to look for etc, just a thought

I'm not sure how well it would go over if it was "we made changes, but we won't tell you about them". How many people would actually believe changes were made?

[Dr. Balls]

On 12/28/2023 at 9:29 AM, MAR1979 said:

Seem to me CGC or any top Tier grading service needs a dept akin to what the US Secret Service does for the US Treasury and that is; prevent, detect, investigate and go after counterfeiters.

The CGC Secret Service. I like it. Honestly, the company is large enough, with so much invested, that's really not that outlandish to suggest.

[THE_BEYONDER]

As already mentioned….new changes to design won’t help those with pre-existing slab inventories.

[wiparker824]

On 12/28/2023 at 9:26 AM, ADAMANTIUM said:

One thing that comes to mind...

Will any upgrades to tamper proof it, will it become public knowledge?

@Buzzettas does cgc have to let us know? That thought crossed my mind to avoid scammers, but I don't know any legalities 

Upgrade to tamper proof for the low price of 4% FMV. 

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/28/2023 at 10:30 AM, wombat said:

I'm not sure how well it would go over if it was "we made changes, but we won't tell you about them". How many people would actually believe changes were made?

ya and if it was hush hush, they wouldn't be aware of any leaks to that info, I was just double checking