ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[Bo1983]

On 12/29/2023 at 11:13 AM, agamoto said:

The most important part, and the part I keep frigging harping about, is that NO charges will see the light of day until those who were victimized by the perp pick up the friggin phone and call the FBI. It is they who have jurisdiction in any interstate criminal enterprise like this. It is NOT for local or state authorities to deal with unless the perp and all his victims reside in Florida. It's all fine and good that CGC will self-investigate, but doing so may obstruct the investigation into the criminal side of the matter. The investigation that can only be done by El Federales. 

I’m 99 percent sure it’s more then one perp.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Bo1983

[Buzzetta]

On 12/29/2023 at 12:49 PM, shadroch said:

I'd buy a CGC book from Storms because I know he would have examined the slabs and wouldn't offer anything he had questions about, and I know he'd stand by the sale.  There aren't many others I deal with who I can say about with 100% confidence, which is why CGC captured market share.  I saw a few books in some upcoming auctions, but I think I'll sit out for a while. 

Bob Storms is a stand up guy.  I say that not just with what I have seen others experience but through my own as well. 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Buzzetta

[LittleTrooper]

Here's what CGC needs to do to restore confidence:

1) Hire a good PR agency.  

2) Work with eBay to create a list of potential victims.  Focus on $10K and up comics and look specifically for Mark Jeweler insert specimens since supposedly it can be identified without cracking the case. 

3) Contact the buyers.  Tell them what is going on and offer to inspect their specimen without cracking the case. CGC should be able to tell if the MJ insert is present or not.   If it's not then the case will need to be cracked to confirm. 

4) Once they have confirmed fraud contact the FBI and turn the case over to them.  

5) Have the PR Agency draft a message to all members as well as a Press Release for the public.   

6) Work with the FBI to clear all employees of wrongdoing.  

Until something like this happens I will not be using CGC for grading.  

 

 

[wombat]

But if someone swapped out a similar grade cover with something wrong in the interior even our most trusted dealers won't know. 

[MatterEaterLad]

On 12/29/2023 at 11:02 AM, wombat said:

But if someone swapped out a similar grade cover with something wrong in the interior even our most trusted dealers won't know. 

This guy might be a dealer. I hope not.

And I agree with the earlier posts about Bob Storms. I've bought countless books from him. One of the best. 

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 12/29/2023 at 1:02 PM, wombat said:

But if someone swapped out a similar grade cover with something wrong in the interior even our most trusted dealers won't know. 

Maybe this is where the pendulum swings back in the direction of buying raw books from trusted dealers rather than slabbed books from strangers. 

[wombat]

Have any of the big dealers chimed in? Don't recall seeing any comments. 

[lostboys]

On 12/29/2023 at 11:09 AM, agamoto said:

The perp committed what's known as fraudulent misrepresentation by sending in swapped books made to appear as legit. He essentially made CGC an unwilling accomplice in his crime by fraudulently misrepresenting the swapped books to them for reholdering.  It's a federal criminal offense punishable by max $10K and/or 5 years in jail... Per offense.

CGC may have been an "unwilling accomplice" but its only because they didnt follow their own protocol and regrade the books before reholdering them.

 

 

[sledgehammer]

On 12/29/2023 at 12:28 PM, lostboys said:

CGC may have been an "unwilling accomplice" but its only because they didnt follow their own protocol and regrade the books before reholdering them.

 

That hasn't been their protocol on reholders.

What they need to do now, is treat all redolders the way that they have always (used to?) treated a slab that came in from their competitors..

They would give it a new CGC grade, inner well and holder, for a specific fee ( I don't recall it, but it wasn't grade fees)

If they can do grade pre screens for $9 per book, with a minimum, they should be able to add @ $15 to each of the reholder option prices, for a grade check.

[shadroch]

On 12/29/2023 at 11:02 AM, wombat said:

But if someone swapped out a similar grade cover with something wrong in the interior even our most trusted dealers won't know. 

You can't tap into The Force as they can.

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 12/29/2023 at 1:38 PM, sledgehammer said:

That hasn't been their protocol on reholders.

What they need to do now, is treat all redolders the way that they have always (used to?) treated a slab that came in from their competitors..

They would give it a new CGC grade, inner well and holder, for a specific fee ( I don't recall it, but it wasn't grade fees)

If they can do grade pre screens for $9 per book, with a minimum, they should be able to add @ $15 to each of the reholder option prices, for a grade check.

What happens when a submitter gets their books back and half of them have slab defects that would currently be handled doing a ME?  That submitter would have to pay a fee for CGC to correct their own mistakes?

[Point Five]

On 12/29/2023 at 1:51 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

What happens when a submitter gets their books back and half of them have slab defects that would currently be handled doing a ME?  That submitter would have to pay a fee for CGC to correct their own mistakes?

Right, that's the problem with reholdering becoming a fee-based service. The reholdering/ME has always been handled as painlessly as possible, because there is usually a disappointed/annoyed/angry customer on the other end.

 

[sledgehammer]

On 12/29/2023 at 12:51 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

What happens when a submitter gets their books back and half of them have slab defects that would currently be handled doing a ME?  That submitter would have to pay a fee for CGC to correct their own mistakes?

No, but if a submitter keeps needing ME, and CGC gets tired of them and the pattern like Mike got tired of Roy, it probably stops.

Amazon tells me plenty of times, when they screw up, that a replacement is no cost, and keep the original.

Then they finally drop me if it doesn't stop.

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 12/29/2023 at 1:55 PM, sledgehammer said:

No, but if a submitter keeps needing ME, and CGC gets tired of them

How can CGC get annoyed with the customer for mistakes they themselves are making?

[JC25427N]

On 12/29/2023 at 1:58 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

How can CGC get annoyed with the customer for mistakes they themselves are making?

Because of their lack of understanding

[sledgehammer]

On 12/29/2023 at 12:58 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

On 12/29/2023 at 12:55 PM, sledgehammer said:

No, but if a submitter keeps needing ME, and CGC gets tired of them

How can CGC get annoyed with the customer for mistakes they themselves are making?

What's the current charge for a ME? If you're correct, and they are at a 50% fail rate why would the fee have to change?

If they refuse, tell them to go  themselves?

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 12/29/2023 at 2:06 PM, sledgehammer said:

What's the current charge for a ME? If you're correct, and they are at a 50% fail rate why would the fee have to change?

If they refuse, tell them to go  themselves?

Currently there is no charge for a ME if returned within a specific time frame.

[lostboys]

On 12/29/2023 at 1:38 PM, sledgehammer said:

That hasn't been their protocol on reholders.

What they need to do now, is treat all redolders the way that they have always (used to?) treated a slab that came in from their competitors..

They would give it a new CGC grade, inner well and holder, for a specific fee ( I don't recall it, but it wasn't grade fees)

If they can do grade pre screens for $9 per book, with a minimum, they should be able to add @ $15 to each of the reholder option prices, for a grade check.

Im sorry but CGC should have never reholdered, without regrading, any book where the customer claims that CGC missed a MJ insert.

 

These folks doing the reholdering are supposed to look for potential damage that would trigger a regrading...no?

 

I think multiple spine ticks on a 9.8 should have triggered a regrade every time.

 

[sledgehammer]

On 12/29/2023 at 1:08 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

Currently there is no charge for a ME if returned within a specific time frame.

Then I guess they would need to better start limiting them.

[wiparker824]

Reholder and ME are not the same thing… and in this context, and particularly what CGC decides going forward I think it’s unwise to lump them together.