• When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.

ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC
50 50

Started by spidermanbeyond,

9,031 posts in this topic

wombat

wombat

Posted
Posted
On 12/29/2023 at 3:19 PM, EastEnd1 said:

CGC clearly knows who the culprit is and very likely has been in touch with them.  Must be very interesting where this stands right now between the two of them.

Well, they know who one of the culprits is. Are there more than one? Who knows. I'm guessing they aren't looking too hard. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Matt1982

Matt1982

Posted
Posted
On 12/29/2023 at 2:02 PM, ShaggyB said:

Regrade gets new number, reholder gets same number.

Same with ME, same cert number.

Not if you add a custom label. A re-holder that adds a custom label (which the ASM252 did) gets a new cert number. That’s what’s so weird here - it kept the same cert number.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
sledgehammer

sledgehammer

Posted
Posted
On 12/29/2023 at 2:23 PM, shadroch said:

No, that's your answer.  I suspect Bob could detect the difference in weight.

He wouldn't even need a scale.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Pantodude

Pantodude

Posted
Posted (edited)

Should we put this in perspective?.  CGC stepping up and eventually listing the implicated cert#s is a good step forward. Hopefully the perpetrator was the only high-volume perp of this kind.  But even if not, the shenanigans discussed in this thread generally concerned uber high-end BA, CA and modern books for which prior sales data reliably suggested a large discrepancy in the valuation between two versions of a book in same grade (here $14K difference for a 9.8 N/S vs 9.8N/S w/ MJ insert), and books with a huge disparity in valuation in the 9.2-9.6 range and 9.8 grade.  These are more recent books with a relatively large number of uber grades on the census to make discovery of suspicious books impractical. That is important here--a large census of, say, 9.8s (to be replaced by a lower-grade MJ or newsstand version on a reholder) that made it easier for the fraudster to get away with something like this because of the sheer volume of data/scans for comparison required to weed out suspicious re-subs/reholders.  That leaves huge swaths--the vast, vast majority actually--of BA, CA and modern books that would not have been implicated in these particular schemes, or at least not to this extent, which is good, right?  

And it should be additional consolation that most of the really expensive books in the hobby are/were more immune to these shenanigans.  The relative scarcity of GA (including PCH), Victorian and Platinum Ages, early SA, and the Marvel price variants of the '60s, '70s, '80s (UK, Can, Aus and experimental price variants, e.g., 35c, etc) should have immunized them.  For such books, presumably it would have taken too long to find a lower grade book with a comparable cover (appearance and grade-wise), with or without missing interior pages/wraps, for this to have happened to any significant degree for practical profit. Just finding a GA or Marvel price variant in a given grade could take months/years, so good luck with finding yet another book with a cover that appears to be the same grade, let alone with the right mix of defects matching the cert# used by a fraudulent seller for the switch.  

Big GA and SA books also seem to be scrutinized more than books from other Ages, with big sales often noted/discussed on these boards and elsewhere, with images to fawn over to boot.  And many of the big-boy GA and early SA books and price variants were sold previously on Heritage or ComicConnect or ComicLink (as most pricey/significant comics seem to be, to this day), so potential buyers of these books will often have high-quality scans available on GPA or the sales venues themselves (and even in many threads on these boards) for double-checking the image associated with the cert#.   

While perps could have included small, non-dealer individuals, and their shenanigans could have extended to even mid-grade but still expensive books from any Age, presumably they would have been too infrequent to have been significant. With the limited resources of such low-volume sellers and/or CGC submitters, such activity would have been pricier and riskier for them compared to dealers who could hide behind their volume, especially before CGC became overwhelmed during the pandemic.  So the impact on cert integrity by such misbehaving individuals could be minimal.  

Anyway, here's hoping to a new year with more to cheer than frown about.   

Edited by Pantodude
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ShaggyB

ShaggyB

Posted
Posted
On 12/29/2023 at 3:21 PM, Matt1982 said:

Not if you add a custom label. A re-holder that adds a custom label (which the ASM252 did) gets a new cert number. That’s what’s so weird here - it kept the same cert number.

To add to this, my last 7 reholders all kept their cert numbers. One was a signature series black cat campbell signed virgin 601 homage cover.

Had 2 venom lethal protectors, an asm 606 for nyc spidey label, 2 facsimile (asm 1 and asm annual 1) for the nyc spidey label and wolverine origins #1 for the wolvie label....

Just verified the submission forms with the relabel numbers and the what came back matches.

My xmen #1 claremont sig had to go back with ME.. it kept its number too, allowed me to notice they missed my custom label and get money back for that.

As far as ive seen, it only gets a new number if it goes through regrading.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
  • Popular Post
Mephisto

Mephisto

Posted
  • Popular Post
Posted
On 12/29/2023 at 3:08 PM, William-James88 said:

Firstly, turns out that Punisher book was resent to CGC, so I was wrong on that, and it's the same scam at play. As for the part I placed in bold, I would always suggest that regardless and I have always acted on "buy the book, not the slab". That rings more true now than ever of course. It's also why I never really got into the 9.8 game and stuck more with GA issues with CGC at least letting me know if a book is restored or not (or to which extent). As for books missing a MVS or a Pin up, sadly CGC has missed those in the past too regardless of this scam. But inserts go beyond CGC certifications and to the broader idea of slabbing a book since you can never truly know the inside of a slabbed book until you remove it from its slab.

image.gif.3ca33fc29476fde4ebf75c20c954f54f.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites
MAR1979

MAR1979

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 12/29/2023 at 3:43 PM, ShaggyB said:

To add to this, my last 7 reholders all kept their cert numbers. One was a signature series black cat campbell signed virgin 601 homage cover.

Had 2 venom lethal protectors, an asm 606 for nyc spidey label, 2 facsimile (asm 1 and asm annual 1) for the nyc spidey label and wolverine origins #1 for the wolvie label....

Just verified the submission forms with the relabel numbers and the what came back matches.

My xmen #1 claremont sig had to go back with ME.. it kept its number too, allowed me to notice they missed my custom label and get money back for that.

As far as ive seen, it only gets a new number if it goes through regrading.

You may both be correct. I've had re-holders missing CPV notations that I sent back as ME; last time same cert number (in 2022), but that not always the case, no pun...

Edited by MAR1979
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ShaggyB

ShaggyB

Posted
Posted
On 12/29/2023 at 3:46 PM, MAR1979 said:

You may both be correct. I've had re-holders missing CPV notations that I sent back as ME last time same cert number (in 2022), but that not always the case, no pun...

Its likely the 252 they are speaking of got regraded due to some reason.

Typically reholder does not involve recert. Thats the hole in the process we believe this guy(s) is/are exploiting

Link to comment
Share on other sites
THE_BEYONDER

THE_BEYONDER

Posted
Posted
On 12/29/2023 at 3:49 PM, ShaggyB said:

Its likely the 252 they are speaking of got regraded due to some reason.

Typically reholder does not involve recert. Thats the hole in the process we believe this guy(s) is/are exploiting

The 252 was given the same cert number….which is what started this whole thing. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
ShaggyB

ShaggyB

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 12/29/2023 at 3:50 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

The 252 was given the same cert number….which is what started this whole thing. 

No not that one.

Guy i responded to said 252 always gets a new cert number when adding custom label and asked why this didnt

Edited by ShaggyB
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ShaggyB

ShaggyB

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 12/29/2023 at 3:52 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

I believe we are talking about the same book 

Not exactly, Matt said this

"Not if you add a custom label. A re-holder that adds a custom label (which the ASM252 did) gets a new cert number. That’s what’s so weird here - it kept the same cert number."

So hes thinking its not normal to get the same cert on a reholder with custom label, but it is possible and happens all the time. Its always a new number when a grader reviews it again... but if it doesnt get a grader, it keeps the same number.

So the asm 252 that he thinks will always get the new cert brcause of custom label would be different from the book we are discussing here, as it has gone through a non standard process. Lol This thread is about the 252 that went through the normal process with the hole in it.

Edited by ShaggyB
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
50 50
Go to topic listing