ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[Iconic1s]

On 12/30/2023 at 1:04 PM, drotto said:

 

In theory CGC knows the originally submitter for every book ever graded. Granted, that garentees nothing once that book has left that original persons hands, if it was sold through non tracked channels.

I guess what I meant was that their subs are significant enough (or their clout is such) that when received, their subs get special attention… moved faster or whatever.

[Mephisto]

On 12/30/2023 at 12:01 PM, MAR1979 said:

LOADED Weapon > Lethal Weapon .  IMHO by a lot!

I think my favorite is Always Sunny’s Lethal Weapon 6.

[Heronext]

On 12/30/2023 at 1:32 PM, Iconic1s said:

Whoa!!  Man, if there is a connection to a major submitter that’s just crazy!  This might explain some of the weird grade dates, etc. and what looks like potential hookups.

(edited for space)

 

Just to whiteboard this (having just watched "The Gold" on Paramount+ which I heard about from iFanboy and recommend), I think we have "The Account" - the CGC account, who might be Joe Blow in Wahoo, Alaska who owns a comic shop and/or pressing business, and there's "The Front" - Mary Contrary, the return address on the packages of scammer's customers.  What is the link between "Front" and "Account", are people being forthcoming about it, are middlemen involved, who knew what and when did they know it. Someone in the middle who works or has worked for Joe Blow might be slipping their own books in with the larger submissions with or without others' knowledge.  Disclaimer: Just one person's armchair theory that requires proof and testing. "Middleman" might very well have their own CGC account.

Edited December 30, 2023 by Heronext

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 12/30/2023 at 1:13 PM, Mephisto said:

I think my favorite is Always Sunny’s Lethal Weapon 6.

[migmtl76]

On 12/30/2023 at 1:38 AM, William-James88 said:

In terms of guarantee, it feels more like a warranty. Like bad stuff happened on my orders but I was made whole monetarily. Never at a loss of money (but definitely at a loss of books or whatnot). So I get their guaranty in that sense. And we are seeing it play out with this current scandal too. People will be monetarily compensated.

What I find completely asinine about the guarantee is that it's wrapped around a catch 22 they created. Only the book within their slab has the guarantee, it represents their service. So their guarantee that the book you purchased isn't missing a page or doesn't have restoration is only good as long as the book remains in the slab. While I get it, it's also the easiest out. The page is missing, but you only knew that because you removed the book from the slab. If it was kept in its holder, it's value as a complete book wouldn't have dropped. That's obviously an issue beyond CGC and more about slabbing books, but it's just to show that some aspects of the guarantee don't mean much. 

(and yes, with the fact that they take pictures now of the graded books, you can further use that to prove that the book you removed from the slab is the same book and in the case of that Archie, you could check if the removal of the pinup was recent or not, which is why CGC still made the individual whole even though they removed it from the slab).

This scandal also puts light on the notion of Guarantee which really is not much of a guarantee at all. 

Edited December 30, 2023 by migmtl76

[Mephisto]

On 12/30/2023 at 12:12 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

But great for reholdering cash grab.

See they win in the end.  House always does.

Yup same they did with not being able to get the card end of CGC correct from day 1. The cases themselves are very nice but having a CGC brand and CSG brand along with 3 different label changes in just a few years was mind boggling stupid business. They were at least able to get loyalists to take advantage of all the holder changes with specials to get all their slabs uniform. Not to mention they changed their grading scale a bit further getting people to reslab their card.

i just couldn’t get over how poorly run the card division was form the start. I said from the start it never made business sense to have CGC and CSG as separate companies. Well that was obviously a correct observation because it didn’t take all that long for the two to combine. Nice clear slabs weren’t enough for me to look past all the obvious incompetence. I also happened to notice the CGC card end of the business being publicly involved with someone that is super shady in the collectibles arena and that was the absolute final death knell for me not put their slabs in my collection. 

However, I can’t tell you the number of people I saw on message boards (not the CGC boards) talking about how they would take advantage of the limited time special to upgrade to the current labels. 

[migmtl76]

On 12/30/2023 at 1:32 PM, Iconic1s said:

Whoa!!  Man, if there is a connection to a major submitter that’s just crazy!  This might explain some of the weird grade dates, etc. and what looks like potential hookups.

If true, this would probably be the best outcome… gives CGC someone to focus on, and also potentially contains the damage to this one guy (with his accomplices) running the scam.

This was already interesting but this kicks up the intrigue a couple notches… until now I imagined the loser toiling away in his basement/garage alone breaking into slabs… now if it’s an actual known big-time submitter pumping books back through CGC and then using people close to him to sell the books then that’s bonkers!

This guy is the lowest of the lows if true (even lower than we already thought)!!  He scams a company that trusted him (a normal submitter wouldn’t have been given the leeway a big one was, maybe) and then pulled people close to him in his life into his greed and turned them into criminals too!  Not to mention betraying every single person that bought a scammed book, and casting doubt over an entire hobby!  Crazy stuff if true!!

 

The scammer probably reads this thread if he has good internet connection in the cave he is hiding in....

[wombat]

CGC employee 1: I think we may have a big problem. 

CGC employee 2: You mean opportunity. 

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 12/30/2023 at 1:33 PM, wombat said:

CGC employee 1: I think we may have a big problem. 

CGC employee 2: You mean opportunity. 

Meanwhile. 

Me reading all 221 pages.

[LittleTrooper]

On 12/28/2023 at 1:23 PM, Mdesimone said:

Incredible Hulk 181 cgc 8.5 reholder scam error  super rare own a piece of history $50,000

you think we will see these listing soon

Lemonade from lemons!  

[COI]

On 12/30/2023 at 5:18 AM, AbsoluteCarnage said:

You make alot of good points I have a boatload of disagreements with regards to ppl accepting labels are all that matter. I've loved some of your posts COI so I'm not gonna dig deep into this one. We're in a rough situation We're all burnt on this one.

 

I understand.

To be clear, I'm not saying that on an individual level, collectors only care about labels. Obviously, most people are in this because they love the books. But when you're looking at the way the market behaves, functionally speaking, the label is what ends up mattering. The main function of third party grading is to commodify comics to better facilitate trade. The label then becomes the criteria for assigning value, and therefore the focal point when real money is involved.

Someone loves ASM 300, so they buy a high grade raw copy. Then they want a slabbed copy; then a 9.8; then a newsstand 9.8, and so on. The story they tell is that they want to have 'the best' copy of the book they love, but that pursuit takes them to a place where the label is what counts. The impetus for the pursuit might be a love of the book, but the label is the only real basis for paying those premiums at the highest levels. That's what I mean when I say the label is all that matters.

[sledgehammer]

On 12/30/2023 at 1:20 PM, Heronext said:

Just to whiteboard this (having just watched "The Gold" on Paramount+ which I heard about from iFanboy and recommend), I think we have "The Account" - the CGC account, who might be Joe Blow in Wahoo, Alaska who owns a comic shop and/or pressing business, and there's "The Front" - Mary Contrary, the return address on the packages of scammer's customers.  What is the link between "Front" and "Account", are people being forthcoming about it, are middlemen involved, who knew what and when did they know it. Someone in the middle who works or has worked for Joe Blow might be slipping their own books in with the larger submissions with or without others' knowledge. 

All feasible. Just FYI.

I saw an ASM key, 9.6 on Joe Blow's ebay page, that was graded in August of 2022

That submission had 25 comics, and there were a considerable number of 9.8s.

There is no indication that that comic has been sold since it was graded, on GPA.

CGC has the connection now. It's on them to figure out who submitted what.

 

[dzbad]

On 12/28/2023 at 12:23 PM, Mdesimone said:

Incredible Hulk 181 cgc 8.5 reholder scam error  super rare own a piece of history $50,000

you think we will see these listing soon

If the Angry Girlfriend variant is a thing, I am sure this can be as well.  Own a piece of comic book history!

[NewWorldOrder]

On 12/30/2023 at 11:33 AM, wombat said:

CGC employee 1: I think we may have a big problem. 

CGC employee 2: You mean opportunity. 

You know what the most important things most employees think about...."when's lunch" and "is it 5pm yet?"

BTW I agree with them

[NewWorldOrder]

On 12/30/2023 at 9:59 AM, Steven Valdez said:

And complacency is yours.... it all evens out.

[NewWorldOrder]

On 12/30/2023 at 10:07 AM, Steven Valdez said:

Does CGC have the skilled workforce to deal with the tsunami of regrading/reholdering orders that may start flooding in (depending on what damage-control measures they decide on)?

More like a light rain shower.

Thousands of books more than likely were not affected.

Most people dont have the money to just pay for those submissions.

Just 100 moderns books per month every month would cost a submitter 30k per year.

You are giving too many people credit that they have the $ capital and skill to do what the scammer did.  Most people dont hence your doomsday scenario isnt going to be a reality.

Edited December 30, 2023 by NewWorldOrder

[THE_BEYONDER]

[Silver Surfer]

I’m actually more curious if a new slab design will need to be released asap in order to put this behind them.  

[universal soldier]

I'm wondering when we'll hear what the "significant improvements" are.

Quote

 We have already made significant improvements to our processes as a result of this incident

 

[Matt1982]

On 12/30/2023 at 4:30 PM, Silver Surfer said:

I’m actually more curious if a new slab design will need to be released asap in order to put this behind them.  

Given the videos floating around about how easy it is to crack a slab, there’s no way for them to avoid it. A new slab design is going to be the first thing they announce, long before we learn any details of the scam or the scope of it.