ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[HighGrade]

I agree, I don't think you can crack and seal the case without it being noticeable in person if you know what to look for, but in photos, absolutely, so I would want to see some really close up photos before purchase but I always wanted that.

honestly the cases don't bother me and I think that part is being blown way out of proportion.  The workforce and hiring practices are the biggest issue here, and reholdering books of high value should ALWAYS go through a regrade process, I mean books even in holders can fade, or have issues, and obviously now we know they didn't do any of that.

[Sigur Ros]

On 12/30/2023 at 1:47 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

What defines a “major submitter”?

A submitter who graduates from Sergeant.

[trademarkcomics]

On 12/30/2023 at 3:05 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

You're not on the CGC forums unless this gets posted at some point every day. 

[wiparker824]

On 12/30/2023 at 4:46 PM, Sigur Ros said:

100%

If the workforce was skilled, this wouldn't have happened.

I don’t know that this is a skill problem, certainly hard to believe anyways. This is a process problem more than likely IMO. It seems that more than likely the books for reholders weren’t even looked at, likely not even removed from the inner wells. Because if they were it isn’t hard to flip thru and verify a MJI. That’s a “skill” I can teach my 4 year old - find the books with the jewelry ad. Because if you’re going to keep allowing for ME and reholder on books where the corner cracked and the book can be slid out then the process must be to look at the actual book. The issue of course is this process costs more time, which is ultimately money. In hindsight I’m sure the CGC execs would agree that it would have been a good investment, but in the moment it was likely a cost saving measure on a process rather than a skill issue. 

 

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 12/30/2023 at 5:50 PM, William-James88 said:

On 12/30/2023 at 5:36 PM, onlyweaknesskryptonite said:

 the real issue with most of this isn't that they needed to look completely unmolested.  

https://youtu.be/FILzt4eFW8s?si=NLxfoHkTzSVutZuD

Feel the same way about that as I do this whole fiasco. 

 

[NewWorldOrder]

On 12/30/2023 at 3:51 PM, onlyweaknesskryptonite said:

Agreed.  As was mentioned pages ago, sure a lot of this has happened as CGC really wasn't prepared to scale to demand. No excuses.  They just could and have not been able to handle their business effectively.  Years ago they blamed it on CON season. Then surges from price increases/ etc . Instead of sticking to their process and values  they tried to speed up the process and spot check items. Which has led us to where we are now. 

Agreed.

I mean we all have no idea why this happened and wasnt caught, but literately this is an easy fix right at the source.  Just basic common sense measures would have prevented all off this right away.  So since CGC is now aware of it I am assuming the process will be under tighter practices going forward.  Best I can come with up.

The people saying the case is easy switch out books, and is affecting thousands of books is where I know their thinking caps are not on tight enough.

 

Edited December 31, 2023 by NewWorldOrder

[BrashL]

On 12/30/2023 at 5:59 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

Agreed.

I mean we all have no idea why this happened and wasnt caught, but literately this is an easy fix right at the source.  Just basic common sense measures would have prevented all off this right away.  So since CGC is now aware of it I am assuming the process will be under tighter practices going forward.  Best I can come with up.

The people saying the case is easy switch out books, and is affecting thousands of books is where I know they thinking caps are not on tight enough.

 

[NewWorldOrder]

On 12/30/2023 at 4:01 PM, BrashL said:

[HighGrade]

On 12/30/2023 at 6:54 PM, wiparker824 said:

I don’t know that this is a skill problem, certainly hard to believe anyways. This is a process problem more than likely IMO. It seems that more than likely the books for reholders weren’t even looked at, likely not even removed from the inner wells. Because if they were it isn’t hard to flip thru and verify a MJI. That’s a “skill” I can teach my 4 year old - find the books with the jewelry ad. Because if you’re going to keep allowing for ME and reholder on books where the corner cracked and the book can be slid out then the process must be to look at the actual book. The issue of course is this process costs more time, which is ultimately money. In hindsight I’m sure the CGC execs would agree that it would have been a good investment, but in the moment it was likely a cost saving measure on a process rather than a skill issue. 

 

Right, shouldn't take much skill to check the holder for tampering, and "any" book with damaged holder or signs of tampering should go through some sort of a regrade process, even if that raises the reholder cost.

[BrashL]

On 12/30/2023 at 6:03 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

No I get it. Just a few fireworks. 

[Sigur Ros]

On 12/30/2023 at 6:54 PM, wiparker824 said:

That’s a “skill” I can teach my 4 year old

Yet the CGC staff was unable.

[ADAMANTIUM]

[mjoeyoung]

On 12/30/2023 at 1:14 PM, COI said:

I understand.

To be clear, I'm not saying that on an individual level, collectors only care about labels. Obviously, most people are in this because they love the books. But when you're looking at the way the market behaves, functionally speaking, the label is what ends up mattering. The main function of third party grading is to commodify comics to better facilitate trade. The label then becomes the criteria for assigning value, and therefore the focal point when real money is involved.

Someone loves ASM 300, so they buy a high grade raw copy. Then they want a slabbed copy; then a 9.8; then a newsstand 9.8, and so on. The story they tell is that they want to have 'the best' copy of the book they love, but that pursuit takes them to a place where the label is what counts. The impetus for the pursuit might be a love of the book, but the label is the only real basis for paying those premiums at the highest levels. That's what I mean when I say the label is all that matters.

To back up this idea, part of the scheme seems to have been abusing the reholdering of books to get custom labels.  So the label has, for some, become an important enough part of the book that they will spend extra money to enhance it.

[Iconic1s]

If they rush a new slab to market as a result of this it will be like admitting the slab was the problem, rather than the “mastermind” that is behind the scam.

You can either say that you had people pay for 10,000,000 easily comprisable slabs and you have no idea how many people exploited this, OR you narrow it down to one perpetrator that really went out of their way to commit fraud against you.

This dude needs to eventually be named and CGC needs to get their lawyers and law enforcement to take every bit of freedom and financial security that they are capable of away from this guy and his co-conspirators.

You don’t get to bring this type embarrassment and brand damage to a half a billion dollar company with “guaranty” in their name and think you are going to enjoy the same quality of life you previously had.

Again, my thoughts… if CGC rushes a new slab design to market they are admitting they facilitated the problem. I think they need to go after these criminals first and then, if they think a new slab design is warranted, then treat that as a (almost) separate issue to instill confidence back AFTER all these folks are rotting in prison.

[NewWorldOrder]

On 12/30/2023 at 4:38 PM, Iconic1s said:

If they rush a new slab to market as a result of this it will be like admitting the slab was the problem, rather than the “mastermind” that is behind the scam.

You can either say that you had people pay for 10,000,000 easily comprisable slabs and you have no idea how many people exploited this, OR you narrow it down to one perpetrator that really went out of their way to commit fraud against you.

This dude needs to eventually be named and CGC needs to get their lawyers and law enforcement to take every bit of freedom and financial security that they are capable of away from this guy and his co-conspirators.

You don’t get to bring this type embarrassment and brand damage to a half a billion dollar company with “guaranty” in their name and think you are going to enjoy the same quality of life you previously had.

Again, my thoughts… if CGC rushes a new slab design to market they are admitting they facilitated the problem. I think they need to go after these criminals first and then, if they think a new slab design is warranted, then treat that as a (almost) separate issue to instill confidence back AFTER all these folks are rotting in prison.

They don't need a Brand New slab (slight enhancement sure), they more so  just need a CGC employee to check and open the book at Reholdering/ME to actually make sure it is the same book.  You know make sure the book actually has a MVS or Mark Jewelers Insert in there.

You can fix this issue in 5 minutes with just a pair of working eyes and someone who can follow basic protocals.

 

[Iconic1s]

On 12/30/2023 at 6:46 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

They don't need a Brand New slab (slight enhancement sure), they more so  just need a CGC employee to check and open the book at Reholdering/ME to actually make sure it is the same book.  You know make sure the book actually has a MVS or Mark Jewelers Insert in there.

You can fix this issue in 5 minutes with just a pair of working eyes and someone who can follow basic protocals.

 

Agreed.

[agamoto]

On 12/30/2023 at 3:44 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

For sure, but that literally is an easy button at CGC to fix in 5 minutes by just having whomever deals with ME or reholder's have a fail safe process in place.  Something was obviously not happening and I sure now going forward it will. 

I mean every year that CGC has been open any reholder/ME of a HULK #181 the employee should be checking the book real quick for the MVS stamp, same for Mark Jewelers inserts.   That is where CGC is to blame for sure.

I kind of agree with you. I reached out to Rick at Immaculate yesterday and he agrees too that folks are taking his video a little far, with a promise to test further.

[agamoto]

They need protocols, and they need to seal the bottom of the case so it’s not easy to pry it open without cracking it. That’s really about it. How they are going to deal with the unknown number of books out there in the wild, who knows.

[NewWorldOrder]

On 12/30/2023 at 4:50 PM, agamoto said:

I kind of agree with you. I reached out to Rick at Immaculate yesterday and he agrees too that folks are taking his video a little far, with a promise to test further.

I mean the guy (Rick) did a great job, and I am not speaking negative of his effort because I fully understand his videos are to help make others be aware.  So kudos for that, and I am sure if he tried with the older CGC holders he would have even more success.  My issue here is some people here are convinced that the holder is easy to switch out books and that is just moronic.

As I stated above the main problem is the scammer combined with for whatever reason people at CGC not doing something so simple that would have prevented all of this.  They will now.

[RockMyAmadeus]

On 12/30/2023 at 9:51 AM, Matt1982 said:

David Schwimmer plays the doc who invented the silicon breast implant.