ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[The_Investor]

I don't know if it has been discussed on this thread... should CGC stop charging the annual fee to dealers given what has transpired? 

Edited January 2 by The_Investor

[BrashL]

On 1/1/2024 at 11:47 PM, mjoeyoung said:

I think the problem may be that both of the books involved in some of the swaps were high grade (9.4 swapped to 9.8).  If there are no grader notes, how much time do you allot to discerning if the 9.8 is really a swapped 9.4?  Haven't we all seen 9.8s that we consider over graded?  How long before the individual doing the reholders gets reprimanded for spending too much time on each book, or sending too many books back for regrading?  How long before customers get annoyed because they simply want a new label, but their 9.8s are coming back 9.6s?

This is 100% the issue with not addressing the cases. Because of the price premium of a 9.8 vs a 9.6, and the inconsistent grading that everyone just seems to accept without any notes to back it up, there is no way to prevent someone from heating the corner of a 9.8, switching it out for a 9.6 or 9.4, resealing, dropping in on the sale corner and sending in for a new legitimate case.  You’ve now doubled your money or better and can rinse and repeat.  Same problem for qualified places in universal cases. 
 

How can you ever prevent this with the current case?  

[pdags]

On 1/2/2024 at 10:07 AM, BrashL said:

the inconsistent grading that everyone just seems to accept without any notes to back it up

I know Briva3 was targeting high end books, but this can be an issue with low/mid-grade books.  For my more expensive CGC books, I tried to verify that the grader's notes matched the actual comic book.  In some cases, the grader's notes were too general to verify the book.

The following can be used to describe a lot of mid-grade books:

• Moderate Spine Stress
• Corner Wear
• Edge Wear

Ironically, with a very specific book of mine I was happy when the grader noted a "Small Tear, Back Cover, Bottom Left".  Between that and a few other things I was highly confident the book was the book.  Plus One for unique defects.  ;-)

 

Edited January 2 by pdags

[William-James88]

On 1/2/2024 at 8:15 AM, BlancoBros said:

Totally guessing here, but if there is a class action lawsuit, cgc could offer a credit per slab. 

CGC is already offering compensation for the confirmed books. I don't see any worthwhile case for a class action lawsuit against them.

[Iconic1s]

On 1/2/2024 at 9:20 AM, William-James88 said:

CGC is already offering compensation for the confirmed books. I don't see any worthwhile case for a class action lawsuit against them.

Is it also true that all the “victims” would need to find each other and sue together?  I think that is how a class action works, OR there is enough in it to get a big law firm interested, set up a registry where people can join in, etc.  Again, I’m not an expert on class action lawsuits but I don’t think either of these are likely scenarios.

[oakman29]

On 12/30/2023 at 3:44 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

For sure, but that literally is an easy button at CGC to fix in 5 minutes by just having whomever deals with ME or reholder's have a fail safe process in place.  Something was obviously not happening and I sure now going forward it will. 

I mean every year that CGC has been open any reholder/ME of a HULK #181 the employee should be checking the book real quick for the MVS stamp, same for Mark Jewelers inserts.   That is where CGC is to blame for sure.

You are a wise man my friend, however trust in the product  HAS wained because if one slab is tainted you must be suspicious of ALL slabs . It would be a nightmare to go back , plus going bankrupted in that time. So they must push forward to instill confidence in their product.  Right now MY confidence in their product is subpar, so fix it before I give them any more of my money. Easy really.....😂

[drotto]

On 1/2/2024 at 7:04 AM, MyNameIsLegion said:

This is where my head is at as well- the inner sleeve is the key to a two part verification system to ensure that inner and outer components of the slab are original. This is probably a more low cost way to implement a layer of security that hardens the target and dissuades fraud.  

Something like this: applied to the inner sleeve in addition to the holder that doesn't detract from the view of the comic and is only visible with the correct equipment. 

Invisible Barcodes For Retailers And Manufacturers

Barcodes and barcode scanning has come a long way over the last few decades and has mainly focused on making them easier to read. To that end, there has been development and an identified need within a range of industries to create “invisible” barcodes. These invisible barcodes are created by using specialized ink that emits a fluorescent “glow” when exposed to certain kinds of lights such as ultraviolet (UV) or infrared (IR) light. This essentially makes the barcode hidden to the naked eye. There are many reasons for barcodes of this nature including aesthetic, as to not ruin the look of a product, as well as brand authentication, security or tracking.

Industry & Application Uses

• Brand authentication – This has become a major problem worldwide over the pass few decades. This includes everything from pharmaceuticals, fake meds from China, to cosmetics and luxury goods such as fake wallets and handbags. Fake products whether imported or not create lost revenue to the manufactures and possible litigation issues to the sellers.
• Package design – Many manufacturers and retailers use packaging with branding and colored designs leaving little room for visible barcodes. Invisible barcodes can be applied without using valuable real estate or interfering with the design. Additionally, these can be applied at different locations on the packaging, allowing barcoding scanners to easily read the codes no matter the positioning on the package.
• Product Identification – Serial numbers and warning labels can utilize invisible barcodes to identify product information including product issues and requirement or possible recalls.

https://www.universeoptics.com/invisible-barcodes-for-retailers-and-manufacturers/

Really like the idea of a UV barcode or watermark on the inner well.  While not impossible to fake, it would take a level of equipment very few "normal" people would have access too.

I think there is a growing consensus of the boards at least that we want to see identification and fraud protection on the inner well.  The key to protect from fraud is the inner well, period. I really think it is impossible to make the out case 100% tamper resistant, so multiple anti tamper measures and redundancies become the key.  

Edited January 2 by drotto

[Iconic1s]

On 1/2/2024 at 10:03 AM, drotto said:

Really like the idea of a UV barcode or watermark on the inner well.  While not impossible to fake, it would take a level of equipment very few "normal" people would have access too.

I think there is a growing consensus of the boards at least that we want to see identification and fraud protection on the inner well.  Thr jey to protect from fraud is the inner well, period. I really think it is impossible to make the out case 100% tamper resistant, so multiple anti tamper measures and redundancies become the key.  

What about laser engraving the same QR code that is on the label, onto the inner well somewhere?

[Kripsys99]

On 1/2/2024 at 10:20 AM, William-James88 said:

CGC is already offering compensation for the confirmed books. I don't see any worthwhile case for a class action lawsuit against them.

Whether or not it would actually hold water, I think the argument for a class action would go something like this:

CGC, through recklessness and/or carelessness in its reholdering process, encapsulated fraudulent books  (ie: lower grade books than were specified on the labels) - facilitating the sale of those books to the unsuspecting general public, and causing a loss of consumer faith in the CGC brand. That avoidable loss of faith in the CGC brand - possible only due to CGC's recklessness and/or carelessness - has devalued all CGC encapsulated books, and undercut the very service which CGC customers paid CGC for to begin with (ie: independent verification and grading of CGC encapsulated books). Therefore, everyone who has ever paid for CGC's services should be eligible for recompense.

Edited January 2 by Kripsys99

[NewWorldOrder]

On 1/2/2024 at 7:02 AM, The_Investor said:

I don't know if it has been discussed on this thread... should CGC stop charging the annual fee to dealers given what has transpired? 

This I would be all for.

[NewWorldOrder]

On 1/2/2024 at 8:11 AM, Kripsys99 said:

Whether or not it would actually hold water, I think the argument for a class action would go something like this:

CGC, through recklessness and/or carelessness in its reholdering process, encapsulated fraudulent books  (ie: lower grade books than were specified on the labels) - facilitating the sale of those books to the unsuspecting general public, and causing a loss of consumer faith in the CGC brand. That avoidable loss of faith in the CGC brand - caused only by CGC's recklessness and/or carelessness - has devalued CGC encapsulated books, and undercut the very service which CGC customers paid CGC for to begin with (ie: independent verification and grading of CGC encapsulated books). Therefore, everyone who has ever paid for CGC's services would be eligible for recompense.

Zero chance of holding even a cheap college beer.

[drotto]

On 1/2/2024 at 11:06 AM, Iconic1s said:

What about laser engraving the same QR code that is on the label, onto the inner well somewhere?

I have already suggested this a few times,  so yes 100%.  I think all inner wells should have on them the book, the grade, if it is universal/qualified/restored/conserved and the certificate number. I was suggesting a hologram or watermark in the back plastic of the inner well, but some more subtle and "hidden" things would be great.  I am also on board with having some undisclosed marks that only CGC would know or have means to see. Similar to how the government has not disclosed all the anti fraud features on money.

 

It is also a way CGC can regain trust and put them ahead of the competition. Really come out with the next level slab. 

 

I can already see collectors running around cons with UV pen lights. 

Edited January 2 by drotto

[HotKey]

On 1/2/2024 at 10:20 AM, William-James88 said:

CGC is already offering compensation for the confirmed books. I don't see any worthwhile case for a class action lawsuit against them.

You would have to prove that CGC had prior knowledge of this and knowingly decided to conceal it from the public to have any shot at a class action.

[comicwiz]

Post withheld.

 

 

Edited February 15 by comicwiz

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 1/2/2024 at 12:54 PM, comicwiz said:

Quck update, I've now expanded the dataset to 1680 records of listings intermingled between three different ebay accounts this person used. This now spans the timeline from 1/29/2011 to 12/19/2023. Below is an infograph which I've updated as well, the highlighted numbers indicate where green to blue swaps occurred, that number in the circle cross-references to the matrix I've created for the six green to blue swaps. As the qualified were not originally sold by this seller, but purchased by the seller to swap it to a blue/universal, all you are seeing is blue/universal sales on the first list. In instances where multiple attempts were made to sell the same comic, with the same certification number, and was recorded as a past sale, I've colour coded and tied by linear markings. In cases where it was one of the green to blue books, only one instance is recorded as an individual entry on the matrix.

Below we have the earliest Hulk 181 sale by this seller, again depicting the slogan we've seen now across three eBay accounts, dated Oct 6, 2013. 

Is the first recorded swap from green to blue in 2019?

[comicwiz]

On 1/2/2024 at 1:35 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

Is the first recorded swap from green to blue in 2019?

The earliest Hulk 181 I was able to find thus far is the Qualified 7.0 that Sold Sept 3, 2022 became Universal 7.5 that Sold Nov 9, 2022 (number 6 on the list/matrix)

Edited January 2 by comicwiz

[shadroch]

I picked a good year to sell 99% of my slabs.

[WoWitHurts]

On 1/2/2024 at 12:35 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

Is the first recorded swap from green to blue in 2019?

They really have no way to tell. Assuming only one person is responsible and doing this is a misnomer. Also, who's to say they were only using ebay or that they were not doing deals before they started on ebay. Also, who's to say they were not submitting books via several authorized CGC dealers. If I am CGC I suspect every re-holder since this case was released. Though, you ask "recorded" but in order to find that out they are going to have to start cracking books. A lot of books. Books which are not in their possession.

[comicwiz]

Information withheld

Edited January 5 by comicwiz

[Yorick]

I think this is off-topic, but CGC could probably just order custom cover designs for their impulse heat sealers so that there'd be a unique design to the edges of the sealed inner well.  Impulse sealers need new covers fairly regularly with the amount of sealing they're doing.  Change the design every six months.