ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[sledgehammer]

On 1/3/2024 at 2:15 PM, LordRahl said:

You're not being serious are you? You think the book in the Heritage scan looks worse than the book with all the corner and edge folds in the zaneglor scan?

Did you look at the book on heritage?  The top right front cover has the same issues.

[sledgehammer]

On 1/3/2024 at 2:20 PM, comicwiz said:

Yes. And not by a little.

I don't know about you, but I've seen a number done on an ASM 129 recently, that gave me the same gag reflex.

[Silver Surfer]

What year did CGC roll out the new holders? That’s probably when this activity started to ramp up.

[EastEnd1]

On 1/3/2024 at 3:22 PM, sledgehammer said:

Did you look at the book on heritage?  The top right front cover has the same issues.

The top right front cover and the top left back cover both look pressed to me... unless the culprit photos being compared to greatly accentuate the bends in those areas.  

[EastEnd1]

The Heritage book looks cleaned too... note the soiling/fingerprints in the bottom half of the yellow at the back cover of the scammer's photo... far reduced but still slightly visible in the Heritage scans.  Could be lighting but looks more like a cleaning to me.  

[sledgehammer]

On 1/3/2024 at 2:43 PM, EastEnd1 said:

The Heritage book looks cleaned too... note the soiling/fingerprints in the bottom half of the yellow at the back cover of the scammer's photo... far reduced but still slightly visible in the Heritage scans.  Could be lighting but looks more like a cleaning to me.  

I think people might be seeing the same thing in the top right corner as what the scanner makes look like is happening at the bottom of the "U" in Hulk.

That's not on the Heritage scan either.

[comicwiz]

On 1/3/2024 at 3:45 PM, sledgehammer said:

I think people might be seeing the same thing in the top right corner as what the scanner makes look like is happening at the bottom of the "U" in Hulk.

That's not on the Heritage scan either.

The thing is that it doesn't look pressed, at least not what you'd expect from a press. As for cleaning, take a look at the area inside the U and between the C and R. If cleaning means removing ink, then yes, there was cleaning as well. I agree that the HA scans make everything look worse because you're comparing high res to a phone pic, but if you carefully go through each, you'll see the books condition degraded.

Edited January 3 by comicwiz

[sledgehammer]

On 1/3/2024 at 2:49 PM, comicwiz said:

The thing is that it doesn't look pressed, at least not what you'd expect from a press. As for cleaning, take a look at the area inside the U and between the C and R. If cleaning means removing ink, then yes, there was cleaning as well. I agree that the HA scans make everything look worse, but if you carefully go through each, you'll see the books condition degraded.

I think we're agreeing. It looks like a hack did the C &P.

[comicwiz]

For sure, just caught in the flow of back and forth, and happened to respond to your comment, but definitely in agreement. 

[EastEnd1]

On 1/3/2024 at 3:45 PM, sledgehammer said:

I think people might be seeing the same thing in the top right corner as what the scanner makes look like is happening at the bottom of the "U" in Hulk.

That's not on the Heritage scan either.

I see... the line under the U looks more like a reflection to me (it's two-dimensional) whereas the bends at the two corners look three-dimensional and deeper.  There's also a similar very slight line running parallel to the one under the U which again makes me think its just a reflection.  But it's possible they're all reflections in the scammers photo... he wasn't very "cleanly" with his photos as we know. 

Edited January 3 by EastEnd1

[EastEnd1]

On 1/3/2024 at 3:49 PM, comicwiz said:

The thing is that it doesn't look pressed, at least not what you'd expect from a press. As for cleaning, take a look at the area inside the U and between the C and R. If cleaning means removing ink, then yes, there was cleaning as well. I agree that the HA scans make everything look worse because you're comparing high res to a phone pic, but if you carefully go through each, you'll see the books condition degraded.

The cleaning at the back cover actually looked pretty good to me... it's not easy to clean off soiling/fingerprints on such a bright yellow cover without degrading the surface color... and I'd expect some slight remnant to remain as it does here.  But again, the lighting in the two photos is dramatically different, so who's to say.

[comicwiz]

On 1/3/2024 at 3:56 PM, EastEnd1 said:

I see... the line under the U looks more like a reflection to me (it's two-dimensional) whereas the bends at the two corners look three-dimensional and deeper.  There's also a similar very slight line running parallel to the one under the U which again makes me think its just a reflection.  But it's possible they're all reflections in the scammers photo... he wasn't very "cleanly" with his photos as we know. 

I've been looking at a lot of pics and scans. The one thing that the HA scans do is create less of an effect of over-saturation and glare, and those types of anomalies happen due to the two part holder design, and occur in problem areas, usually above the label, or at the bottom edge. You don't expect these in the area which I've pointed out, which is the inside of the U and between the C and R. The artifact of lighting probability, while higher with a photo, doesn't create the kind of dimming that would appear as evidenced by the ink loss that occurred. It would appear less subtle. What I'm saying is that the ink is gone in areas where it was present before. 

Edited January 3 by comicwiz

[HighGrade]

The whole idea you can swap without detection was not the issue, it's a distraction really, CGC said they fixed the issue....Do we see new holders? NO, what was fixed then?  Something internal, could just be an employee who just checks incoming reholder subs...ones that "look" intact, and others that show damage, this employee was just a grunt, never really check good or was possibly in on it. or maybe "some" large trusted submissions got special attention (hopefully not that).  These ideas would require a private investigator which they got, simple stupid crack with half arse seal and slip by the staff by a single scammer would not require a PI, I kinda think this is more elaborate evolving a few working parts.

I think the switch was so MUCH easier, because I still see people send in reholders that grade LOWER so they DO look at the books, so who's books did not get looked at? or what type of books? or did the person who prepares the books for slabbing "see" the names of resubs and thus ignored the protocol on certain subs?, maybe just grading is anonymous.

I really hope it was just a rogue employee, I mean that's the easy fix and they said they fixed it. Either way I hope they make public the entire string of people involved.

[LordRahl]

On 1/3/2024 at 11:45 AM, EastEnd1 said:

Yep, totally agree. 

Hope I'm wrong but I'm left with either the scammer was able to get into both the outer and inner wells and reseal them both without an obvious difference (apparently Heritage didn't notice anything) or an insider was involved.  Or, I guess was simply "a clerical error" by CGC, if we want to be optimistic. 

Obviously this is all going to be speculation by me but I've been thinking of the most likely scenario and here is what I think.

Despite what CW and sledge claim, the Heritage book is clearly pressed and looks considerably better than the zaneglor copy. Now the question is how did it get pressed and regraded but keep the serial number.

I think whoever bought it from zaneglor got the book and thought "holy cow this is badly overgraded". He called up CGC and basically told them they F'd up a grade on a high dollar book. CGC will, at their discretion, review books in cases like this. So the buyer sends the book to CGC, they look at it and figure either they really screwed up the grade or it was a bad press job and reverted in the case after they slabbed it. They offered the new owner a free CCS press and re-grade. In this circumstance, the book would be re-graded but keep its original cert number.

[EastEnd1]

On 1/3/2024 at 4:20 PM, LordRahl said:

Obviously this is all going to be speculation by me but I've been thinking of the most likely scenario and here is what I think.

Despite what CW and sledge claim, the Heritage book is clearly pressed and looks considerably better than the zaneglor copy. Now the question is how did it get pressed and regraded but keep the serial number.

I think whoever bought it from zaneglor got the book and thought "holy cow this is badly overgraded". He called up CGC and basically told them they F'd up a grade on a high dollar book. CGC will, at their discretion, review books in cases like this. So the buyer sends the book to CGC, they look at it and figure either they really screwed up the grade or it was a bad press job and reverted in the case after they slabbed it. They offered the new owner a free CCS press and re-grade. In this circumstance, the book would be re-graded but keep its original cert number.

Ok, that's another possibility that I actually prefer to believe, cause my potential explanations (other than maybe the clerical error) give me agita.

[Darth Krayt]

Its really good to see everyone working together to try and solve this issue!

[MasterChief]

On 1/3/2024 at 10:33 AM, Silver Surfer said:

What year did CGC roll out the new holders? That’s probably when this activity started to ramp up.

Good question.

The following is not my work. Credit goes to valiantman.

Image is from his thread titled “CGC label changes through the years - a visual guide”

 

 

 

Edited January 3 by MasterChief

[Comics]

On 1/2/2024 at 1:58 PM, drotto said:

It gives the scammer the legitimacy of the CGC census, since CGC has been rescanning covers after reholdering. So if you look it up, it is this book pictured. It covers any damage that may have occurred to the slab during the switch. Which is essential, because many collectors are very particular about cases, and may question if the book is legitimate if they notice even a hint of damage. 

 

That is the prevailing theory at this point.

It kind of 'closes the loop'

[Comics]

On 1/3/2024 at 1:12 PM, comicwiz said:

I've been looking at a lot of pics and scans. The one thing that the HA scans do is create less of an effect of over-saturation and glare, and those types of anomalies happen due to the two part holder design, and occur in problem areas, usually above the label, or at the bottom edge. You don't expect these in the area which I've pointed out, which is the inside of the U and between the C and R. The artifact of lighting probability, while higher with a photo, doesn't create the kind of dimming that would appear as evidenced by the ink loss that occurred. It would appear less subtle. What I'm saying is that the ink is gone in areas where it was present before. 

Man, I don't know about you - but I'm getting really sick of seeing that beige fibrous upholstery in the background... It's giving me PTSD...

[Darth Krayt]

On 1/3/2024 at 9:51 AM, Mephisto said:

Given your spelling abilities I suggest you read Spidey Super Stories.

Edited January 3 by Darth Krayt