ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 1/3/2024 at 9:15 PM, COMICLINK said:

I think all "cleared" books should be removed from the list by CGC, actively, so the list of books to watch out for should shrink substantial over time, hopefully within a short period of time.

Imo it's too late, do you for sure, but as the amount this will spread by wildfire, we don't want people then saying "ah but there is a NEW list?

Do you think that wise to make people question authenticity of any list in that way?

[COMICLINK]

CGC is the final arbiter of the list of potentially suspect books. 

If it is on CGC's list, which should be modified and shrinking over time, it should not be sold by anyone without being reviewed first and then removed off of CGC's list. 

We will not sell any of them prior to that occurring and no one else should either.

 

 

Edited January 4 by COMICLINK

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 1/3/2024 at 9:19 PM, COMICLINK said:

CGC is the final arbiter of the list of potentially suspect books. 

If it is on CGC's list, which should be modified and shrinking over time, it should not be sold by anyone without being reviewed first and then removed off of CGC's list. 

We will not sell any of them prior to that occurring and no one else should either.

 

 

That just complicates things. Cgc should be able to say we've regraded the approximate 350 books all is well with new cert numbers. That is the only clear name legal wise you'll find.

If an auto manufacturer has a recall to not send it back in makes you responsible for your own mishap. Just saying!

We shouldn't convolute this serious situation to spare some feelings of ego or pride or whatever, not saying that specifically, but if a 200 page thread isn't enough to convince those on the list then I just shake my head in disbelief.

That list is published and you don't know the reaches it went too, nor do you know the reach of any subsequent lists.

It will potentially leave whomever in the hook same as an auto recall. 50 sales from now there is a problem and @CGC Mike has to come by and say sorry we tried to warn you.

[COMICLINK]

Also, it should be noted that according to CGC, this scam only involved reholders linked to the party in question. Regardless, if there are more of them that are unknown in addition to what is on this list (which is tiny compared to the number of books that they have certified), CGC is stating they are going to make it right, so to me, THAT restores confidence and negates the fear of loss currently, and also with regard to purchasing books going forward, in such cases where one of these got by CGC. 

 

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 1/3/2024 at 9:27 PM, COMICLINK said:

Also, it should be noted that according to CGC, this scam only involved reholders linked to the party in question. Regardless, if there are more of them that are unknown in addition to what is on this list (which is tiny compared to the number of books that they have certified), CGC is stating they are going to make it right, so to me, THAT restores confidence and negates the fear of loss currently, and also with regard to purchasing books going forward, in such cases where one of these got by CGC. 

 

Then send it in regardless, if CGC is going all out, leave no doubt

[COMICLINK]

And you make a good point.  Now that the list is released, perhaps prematurely with books that are just fine, they should probably all be resubmitted to CGC for review and a new cert number.

[COMICLINK]

Nighty night

[LordRahl]

On 1/3/2024 at 7:00 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

 

 

 and hear me out?

Wouldn't anyone "on the list" want to send in to get a new cert number to then "be off the list?"

Then if they aren't found to have fraud books are then liable for grading fees? (Probably due to cgc insurance wile holding them? Idk)

Yes, I think anyone that has a book on the list should send it in for review. It would be in that person's best interest no matter what the outcome. I don't think anyone suggested otherwise. I think what some of us are saying is that not EVERY book on that list is likely to be tampered with. Like the SS books I'm guessing are just normal untampered with books. This guy obviously deals in comics. I'm sure he has sold normal books in the past but obviously everything he has sold should now come into question.

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 1/3/2024 at 9:30 PM, LordRahl said:

Yes, I think anyone that has a book on the list should send it in for review. It would be in that person's best interest no matter what the outcome. I don't think anyone suggested otherwise. I think what some of us are saying is that not EVERY book on that list is likely to be tampered with. Like the SS books I'm guessing are just normal untampered with books. This guy obviously deals in comics. I'm sure he has sold normal books in the past but obviously everything he has sold should now come into question.

They stated they'd inspect themselves and "inform cgc", I took that as they wouldn't be sent in and regraded.

That was not clear then my apologies  @COMICLINK

[LordRahl]

On 1/3/2024 at 7:31 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

They stated they'd inspect themselves and "inform cgc", I took that as they wouldn't be sent in and regraded.

That was not clear then my apologies  @COMICLINK

That may have been the initial position but I think CL and any other auction house that has access to any of these will see the need for the books to be examined by CGC and reholdered with new cert numbers if proven to be clean. I didn't read all of Josh's posts but I'm honestly surprised he would not do that

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 1/3/2024 at 9:36 PM, LordRahl said:

That may have been the initial position but I think CL and any other auction house that has access to any of these will see the need for the books to be examined by CGC and reholdered with new cert numbers if proven to be clean. I didn't read all of Josh's posts but I'm honestly surprised he would not do that

He agreed that they would now, and perhaps with consignment or auctions, it takes permissions of the owners of slabs. Weighing those attributes, it isn't as simple as black and white, I was only encouraging to stick to the no sell guns. Then if cgc is offering a new cert regardless, then it would help cgc not have to keep up with "lists".

I'm sure behind the scenes it may be more black and white with cgc and entities, and that cgc can take care of them when in hand. But glad that it was taken to heart that cgc, for now, needs to be direct and to the point, not convoluted . Although obvious books will be easier begind the scenes, just be sure to dot I and cross t.

I also say it to encourage any owners now who aren't easily associated with cgc as comiclink. I know those auto recalls are a pain, with some more serious than others, and mechanic vehicle owners may themselves see it as less necessary.

Similar with comic Link, but it is for you're own good sometimes and it is best

I'll nag someone else now haha 

Edited January 4 by ADAMANTIUM

[Terry JSA]

After seeing the list of books. I won’t lie, I do applaud him.

Can’t knock his hustle. He definitely had motion.

[ShaggyB]

On 1/3/2024 at 3:07 PM, pdags said:

Maybe they had CGC do the Pressing?  I don't know if that would keep the serial number or not.  Anybody know?

No. Pressing results in regrade and new number. I can confirm that with superman 75 i sent to get pressed and regraded. Got same grade, picked up some spine stress from the press.... BUT got new cert nunber.

It did take 2 days for the old cert to be removed from census though

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 1/3/2024 at 9:15 PM, gmasstermcd said:

I was just looking up some of the books from the list on the registry a bunch of the 9.8 ASM 300's and #194's on the registry and I find it odd they all seem to have graders notes on 9.8's. I got hit with a search limiter and cant check anymore for a while but Every book I checked had graders notes which I find very, very odd from CGC especially on 9.8's.

I have had some submissions where the grader actually made notes on my 9.8's . I have also had some were there were no notes on 9.2-9.6. That aside. With the special circumstances of these books CGC may have updated some of those books with some of the internal graders notes that would help identify specific characteristics of the books that may help with verification. 

[mr_highgrade]

On 1/3/2024 at 7:52 PM, LordRahl said:

Dupecake being involved wouldn't surprise me. I'm pretty sure he sold out of a Kew Gardens address back in the day and I know one of his shills at one point had an Arizona address. Which are 2 of the current addresses in question. And we know he used shills to sell his material as well. 

I doubt very much Dupcak is involved in this scam, although he's definitely taking notes and even posting on this thread. 

[wiparker824]

On 1/3/2024 at 5:50 PM, agamoto said:

1. Get a silver Sharpie. 

2. Get a lower grade donor AF15

3. Learn to sign the way Stan Lee signed his signature in the waning years of his life or buy an autopen machine for $300.

4. Sign your lower grade AF15 and put it in your SS case.

5. Grow a pair of massive, iron balls.

5. Submit for reholder/custom label. 

6. Sell your reholdered AF15 upon its return

7. Submit the real one to the "other grading company" and pay $25 for them to verify the sig.

8. Sell that book too. 

Edit: Nvm, didn’t scroll to see the actual images with the signature on the back cover. 

Edited January 4 by wiparker824

[gmasstermcd]

On 1/3/2024 at 10:56 PM, onlyweaknesskryptonite said:

I have had some submissions where the grader actually made notes on my 9.8's . I have also had some were there were no notes on 9.2-9.6. That aside. With the special circumstances of these books CGC may have updated some of those books with some of the internal graders notes that would help identify specific characteristics of the books that may help with verification. 

I have about 60 9.8 slabs from CGC none have a single note with various grading dates and I think before today I have only seen 1 9.8 universal label with a graders note. Anyways I checked all the ASM 194's I counted 55 9.8's and  37 of them have notes and many of them seem very generous to get a 9.8. Seems like a crazy high percentage, and if it is as you say that means CGC has graders notes that they just don't put on the website and keep them internal for no reason what-so-ever. 9.8's don't even really need graders notes the most important grade for needing graders notes IMO is 9.6 so you at least know why it's not a 9.8.

[Buzzetta]

On 1/3/2024 at 11:21 PM, wiparker824 said:

While this is certainly plausible the AF15 is noted as “Stan Lee '86" written on page 1 in pen” Why would you forge sign Stan Lee with the year 1986 on the first page? That IS the way Stan would sign in ‘86, before CGC, but not the way he’d sign when that book was subbed and not the way you’d make the most money either, generally people pay more for a yellow label with the signature on the cover. So if you’re going to fake a signature you’d do it on the cover and not put ‘86 on it. And the book says it was signed in early 2018 (the year he died). By that time Stan wasn’t doing signings where you could make requests like “Sign Stan Lee ‘86 on the inside because ‘86 is the year I was born” or something of that nature. He was just being abused to sign every cover like a machine.

The only thing that makes sense to me is this was a unwitnessed green label book that Stan probably did sign on the interior back in ‘86 that the scammer found a way to flip to yellow, likely with a grade bump. I’m not entirely sure how they would have done that but it’s the only thing that makes sense if that book was indeed fraudulent.  

Signatures with pen on the interior page are treated much differently grade wise than an unverified sharpie signature on the cover.   

[Buzzetta]

On 1/3/2024 at 10:51 PM, Terry JSA said:

After seeing the list of books. I won’t lie, I do applaud him.

Can’t knock his hustle. He definitely had motion.

I'm taking out this time
To give you a piece of my mind
'Cause you can't knock the hustle
Who do you think you are?
Baby, one day you'll be a star

[wiparker824]

On 1/3/2024 at 9:25 PM, Buzzetta said:

Signatures with pen on the interior page are treated much differently grade wise than an unverified sharpie signature on the cover.   

Yeah I see now that it was signed on the back cover. I didn’t previously see that, makes a lot more sense now that they forged the back cover signature.