ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[pdags]

On 1/11/2024 at 8:08 PM, comicjel said:

Good reminder that CGC has created many great experiences for me as well - looking forward to getting back to those!!

 

On 1/11/2024 at 8:33 PM, mrd160 said:

 

[comicjel]

On 1/11/2024 at 8:30 PM, mrd160 said:

I don’t want to speculate on an innocent carpet 

I dunno... carpet "lays the groundwork" for the whole operation!!

[MatterEaterLad]

On 1/11/2024 at 5:35 PM, comicjel said:

I have never had a graded book signed - does CGC regrade books that are getting signed?  

They're supposed to.

I sent a purple label comic in for a signing and it came back blue, so I dunno. 

[HighGrade]

With people bringing up Comic Book Station, someone found a listing and CGC wrong book error and they removed listing after someone contacted them. I think I saw this mentioned a week ago in someones Youtube comments, anyway it was a Captain Atom 83 CGC 6.0 from 1977 the 35 cent Modern Comics version, but the CGC label was "wrong" it showed it as the original 1966 12 cent Charlton version, They had it up for sale as the 1966 version by mistake. Not really a big deal, but I just thought it was interesting with people bringing them up, I was like hey I remember that name. here is the link, it was about a week ago. I never knew there was so many error labels until this thing hit I started looking into stuff, even found errors in the subs from the 350.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/115965985978

 

[mr_highgrade]

On 1/11/2024 at 7:44 PM, OldGuy said:

💕

Where have you been?

[agamoto]

On 1/11/2024 at 12:49 PM, Comics said:

I am just dropping in and out of this thread...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/07/18/baseball-card-collectors-suspected-rampant-fraud-their-hobby-now-fbi-is-investigating/

If I could just point something out there...  

"The scandal started after a pair of online collectors began identifying and documenting cards that were allegedly improperly modified. They have identified 316 such cards, retouched by nearly a dozen “card doctors,” that sold for a combined $1.4 million. The four collectors who spoke with investigators say the FBI suspects thousands of additional cards with similar issues are still circulating through the hobby."

To all the folks here who bemoan my insistence the FBI and/or FTC need to be at the lead of this investigation, let the card scandal experience described in the article be exhibit A.

It only required a few hundred cards, a million plus in potentially fraudulent sales, and 4 complaints from collectors to get the feds involved. 

Oh, and as for dropping the Comic Station name... Folks, you gotta be careful here. Correlation != Causation... Innocent until proven guilty.

While there is plenty of photo evidence and even a smoking heat gun which appears to link the company to a lot of these books in question, it's all just a tangle of threads that need to be pulled and looked at by actual criminal investigators. No, not the PI's hired by CGC, those don't count.

It's totally fine to discuss the obvious connections which exist at face value between Comic Station, i.e. all the pictures of the books we've seen on their social media, all the ads we've seen on eBay for years now... The connections are apparent to anyone... However, it's a recipe for having your handed to you in defamation court if the company is able to demonstrate it lost reputation and business by anyone pegging them for being responsible for these scams before they are ever indicted, tried and convicted for such a crime.

It is still within the realm of possibility that this company, and it's owners/operators, are also being played like a fiddle by one of their consignors or something, we don't know.  

We will never really know unless an actual law enforcement investigation takes place.

[Comics]

On 1/11/2024 at 10:53 PM, agamoto said:

If I could just point something out there...  

"The scandal started after a pair of online collectors began identifying and documenting cards that were allegedly improperly modified. They have identified 316 such cards, retouched by nearly a dozen “card doctors,” that sold for a combined $1.4 million. The four collectors who spoke with investigators say the FBI suspects thousands of additional cards with similar issues are still circulating through the hobby."

To all the folks here who bemoan my insistence the FBI and/or FTC need to be at the lead of this investigation, let the card scandal experience described in the article be exhibit A.

It only required a few hundred cards, a million plus in potentially fraudulent sales, and 4 complaints from collectors to get the feds involved. 

Oh, and as for dropping the Comic Station name... Folks, you gotta be careful here. Correlation != Causation... Innocent until proven guilty.

While there is plenty of photo evidence and even a smoking heat gun which appears to link the company to a lot of these books in question, it's all just a tangle of threads that need to be pulled and looked at by actual criminal investigators. No, not the PI's hired by CGC, those don't count.

It's totally fine to discuss the obvious connections which exist at face value between Comic Station, i.e. all the pictures of the books we've seen on their social media, all the ads we've seen on eBay for years now... The connections are apparent to anyone... However, it's a recipe for having your handed to you in defamation court if the company is able to demonstrate it lost reputation and business by anyone pegging them for being responsible for these scams before they are ever indicted, tried and convicted for such a crime.

It is still within the realm of possibility that this company, and it's owners/operators, are also being played like a fiddle by one of their consignors or something, we don't know.  

We will never really know unless an actual law enforcement investigation takes place.

It's funny - I was looking at those "316 cards" correlating to "350 slabs"... 

[pdags]

On 1/11/2024 at 10:15 PM, HighGrade said:

Captain Atom 83 CGC 6.0 from 1977 the 35 cent Modern Comics version, but the CGC label was "wrong" it showed it as the original 1966 12 cent Charlton version

That book has gotten me more times than I can count... "That's a great priceI should buy tha... Oh, wait, wait, which one is the original...  Is it the "M" one or not?"

[comicwiz]

On 1/11/2024 at 10:21 PM, mr_highgrade said:

Where have you been?

Seconded 

[mrd160]

On 1/12/2024 at 1:53 AM, agamoto said:

If I could just point something out there...  

"The scandal started after a pair of online collectors began identifying and documenting cards that were allegedly improperly modified. They have identified 316 such cards, retouched by nearly a dozen “card doctors,” that sold for a combined $1.4 million. The four collectors who spoke with investigators say the FBI suspects thousands of additional cards with similar issues are still circulating through the hobby."

To all the folks here who bemoan my insistence the FBI and/or FTC need to be at the lead of this investigation, let the card scandal experience described in the article be exhibit A.

It only required a few hundred cards, a million plus in potentially fraudulent sales, and 4 complaints from collectors to get the feds involved. 

Oh, and as for dropping the Comic Station name... Folks, you gotta be careful here. Correlation != Causation... Innocent until proven guilty.

While there is plenty of photo evidence and even a smoking heat gun which appears to link the company to a lot of these books in question, it's all just a tangle of threads that need to be pulled and looked at by actual criminal investigators. No, not the PI's hired by CGC, those don't count.

It's totally fine to discuss the obvious connections which exist at face value between Comic Station, i.e. all the pictures of the books we've seen on their social media, all the ads we've seen on eBay for years now... The connections are apparent to anyone... However, it's a recipe for having your handed to you in defamation court if the company is able to demonstrate it lost reputation and business by anyone pegging them for being responsible for these scams before they are ever indicted, tried and convicted for such a crime.

It is still within the realm of possibility that this company, and it's owners/operators, are also being played like a fiddle by one of their consignors or something, we don't know.  

We will never really know unless an actual law enforcement investigation takes place.

This is the last thing I want to say on this topic because I really want to move on with my real life, in my mind the only relevance of discussing any dealer is to see how these books that may have been tainted have moved around. I think it is very possible that many dealers in the Brooklyn/Queens area at least, have had hands or eyes on some of these books, the vast majority (most likely all) unknowingly. The dealers I know in this area knew who he was (one of which gave me the heads-up). If it is true that this alleged scammer has been switching books, then every single one of his submissions needs to be scrutinized…period. And we need to see how the books were laundered. I can say from my personal experience, that these books were sold/marketed at shows and off-line as well as eBay/auction houses. My position, right now, is that CGC is a major victim here in terms of their reputation so it is up to them to decide what they do with any information that is provided. As I have said I’m not a slab collector I offered whatever information I had first-hand knowledge of to CGC and it’s up to them to decide what they’re gonna do. Everyone else needs to chill because we don’t know how deep this goes and quite honestly we probably never will. 

[mosconi]

On 1/12/2024 at 6:31 AM, mrd160 said:

This is the last thing I want to say on this topic because I really want to move on with my real life, in my mind the only relevance of discussing any dealer is to see how these books that may have been tainted have moved around. I think it is very possible that many dealers in the Brooklyn/Queens area at least, have had hands or eyes on some of these books, the vast majority (most likely all) unknowingly. The dealers I know in this area knew who he was (one of which gave me the heads-up). If it is true that this alleged scammer has been switching books, then every single one of his submissions needs to be scrutinized…period. And we need to see how the books were laundered. I can say from my personal experience, that these books were sold/marketed at shows and off-line as well as eBay/auction houses. My position, right now, is that CGC is a major victim here in terms of their reputation so it is up to them to decide what they do with any information that is provided. As I have said I’m not a slab collector I offered whatever information I had first-hand knowledge of to CGC and it’s up to them to decide what they’re gonna do. Everyone else needs to chill because we don’t know how deep this goes and quite honestly we probably never will. 

Well said I'm sure CGC knows who the culprit is by now and is further accumulating as much evidence as possible from as many sources available to create an airtight case.  If CGC wants to retain credibility after all is said and done, they'll need to prosecute this individual/persons involved to the full extent of the law (jail time) and set an example to the comic world that this nefarious behavior will not be accepted or tolerated now or in the future.

And also importantly, implement and explain to the community all the necessary changes made in their systems and designs to ensure these scams do not reappear...

Edited January 12 by mosconi

[royaluglydudes]

Changed my mind.

Edited January 12 by royaluglydudes
Changed my mind

[William-James88]

On 1/12/2024 at 10:18 AM, mosconi said:

If CGC wants to retain any credibility after all is said and done, they'll need to prosecute this individual/persons involved to the full extent of the law (jail time) and set an example to the comic world that this nefarious behavior will not be accepted or tolerated now or in the future.

This part makes 0 sense to me in terms of causality. CGC is not the victim, only the people who trusted CGC are the victims. CGC is an unknowing accomplice because the only reason this discussion is even happening is because CGC released a book into the wild where the holder was not indicating the proper content (this ASM 252).

As a customer, knowing that CGC prosecuted this person to the full extent of the law does not in any way make them more credible to me. I don't see how it would make anyone feel better, all it does is remove blame on their part. I don't care if the nefarious behavior is accepted or not, I care far more about the nefarious behavior being possible or not. There will always be bad actors and scammers, prevention is the key, punishment does nothing to make me feel better about anything. All punishment does is tell the bad actors to smarten up about how they undergo their nefarious activities so that they don't get caught.

 

EDIT: Of course, I don't think any culprit should get off the hook, this is not an either or. I am simply referring to what solutions would make me personally feel better about continuing my business with CGC.

Edited January 12 by William-James88

[EastEnd1]

On 1/12/2024 at 10:18 AM, mosconi said:

Well said I'm sure CGC knows who the culprit is by now and is further accumulating as much evidence as possible from as many sources available to create an airtight case.  If CGC wants to retain any credibility after all is said and done, they'll need to prosecute this individual/persons involved to the full extent of the law (jail time) and set an example to the comic world that this nefarious behavior will not be accepted or tolerated now or in the future.

They also need to be more transparent than they have been.  Their last posting was on January 3rd.  A LOT of questions have been raised with no answers forthcoming.  I'm sure they, and many others, would like for this incident to just disappear.  Me too!  But if the situation is in fact substantially larger than these 350 books (which still haven't been defined as to why they are on this list), CGC is just delaying the inevitable.  As we've learned, there are MANY amateur comic detectives that are quite adept at sniffing out shenanigans.  The last thing CGC or any of us need is a slow bleed of scandals.  I wouldn't be rolling the dice on that possibility.  Either give us assurance that we're good to go, or tell us that you're still investigating and here's an update on our efforts.  I'll still be patient as I know investigations take time (though I'm not sure why carefully worded updates aren't forthcoming).  But at some point, for me, silence becomes "Houston, we have a problem."     

[William-James88]

On 1/11/2024 at 10:14 PM, MatterEaterLad said:

They're supposed to.

I sent a purple label comic in for a signing and it came back blue, so I dunno. 

[universal soldier]

On 1/12/2024 at 10:39 AM, Nazirite said:

Just a heads up CGC is a little…. sensitive…. when it’s come to comparing slabs with the competitions, especially nowadays. You may want to delete. 

In this case it should stand since it shows a flaw that needs to be corrected. I have not watched the video yet but burying this information is a bad look.

[wiparker824]

On 1/12/2024 at 8:40 AM, William-James88 said:

This part makes 0 sense to me in terms of causality. CGC is not the victim, only the people who trusted CGC are the victims. CGC is an unknowing accomplice because the only reason this discussion is even happening is because CGC released a book into the wild where the holder was not indicating the proper content (this ASM 252).

As a customer, knowing that CGC prosecuted this person to the full extent of the law does not in any way make them more credible to me. I don't see how it would make anyone feel better, all it does is remove blame on their part. I don't care if the nefarious behavior is accepted or not, I care far more about the nefarious behavior being possible or not. There will always be bad actors and scammers, prevention is the key, punishment does nothing to make me feel better about anything. All punishment does is tell the bad actors to smarten up about how they undergo their nefarious activities so that they don't get caught.

I agree with a lot of this but I don’t think it needs to be an either or. Both can and should happen. Punishment for the individual is a deterrent to some degree. I’m not saying it should let CGC off the hook, but if you tell people “keep trying to trick us, the worst that will happen is a slap on the wrist and you lose your annual membership” you’re inviting a lot more problems. If people know the individual(s) responsible were facing federal crimes it may deter some people. Not all, but some. Hopefully in addition to that additional prevention measures on CGC’s end will take place. But again I don’t think this needs to be an either or debate. 

[Nick Furious]

On 1/12/2024 at 9:40 AM, William-James88 said:

As a customer, knowing that CGC prosecuted this person to the full extent of the law does not in any way make them more credible to me. I don't see how it would make anyone feel better, all it does is remove blame on their part

It would matter to me because the defense discovery process would hopefully clear CGC of any legal wrongdoing, inside man, favorable treatments, etc.  Without an opportunity for the defense to get on the record, these things remain suspect.  CGC will always own the slab portion of this, but someone also has to own the criminal portion of this.    

[William-James88]

On 1/12/2024 at 11:10 AM, wiparker824 said:

I agree with a lot of this but I don’t think it needs to be an either or. Both can and should happen. Punishment for the individual is a deterrent to some degree. I’m not saying it should let CGC off the hook, but if you tell people “keep trying to trick us, the worst that will happen is a slap on the wrist and you lose your annual membership” you’re inviting a lot more problems. If people know the individual(s) responsible were facing federal crimes it may deter some people. Not all, but some. Hopefully in addition to that additional prevention measures on CGC’s end will take place. But again I don’t think this needs to be an either or debate. 

Oh, 100% Sorry if I wasn't clear (I do see how I was not), I was only relating to how the punishment didn't reassure me as a customer. But yes, of course, every angle should be investigated and no culprit should get off easy.

[William-James88]

On 1/12/2024 at 11:12 AM, Nick Furious said:

It would matter to me because the defense discovery process would hopefully clear CGC of any legal wrongdoing, inside man, favorable treatments, etc.  Without an opportunity for the defense to get on the record, these things remain suspect.  CGC will always own the slab portion of this, but someone also has to own the criminal portion of this.    

Yes, you are 100% correct on this.