ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[sledgehammer]

This is what I see as the problem with not knowing a timeline on when we will hear "who" CGC believes is behind this:

It seems to me to be an extreme example of a coincidence, that @mycomicshop would list 3-  9.8 ASM Newsstands right now, all from the same submission

I brought it up earlier that I would now be viewing submissions on books listed with a lot more scrutiny. The listing prices are quite high for the current market, but offers are being accepted

Here is what I see.

This cert, of a 9.6 newsstand, sold for the highest price (by quite a bit) of a 9.6 in 2023.  4144955001 sold on June 19th, 2023

I think that's intriguing ( and please, somebody check the sale if possible ) , considering the speculation on shill bidding in many of "scamboy's" auctions, when you consider this:

Here are the other books in that submission of 12/12/22:

4144955002  9.8  ASM  300 newsstand   https://d1466nnw0ex81e.cloudfront.net/n_ii/originalimage/7181147.jpg

4144955003  9.8  ASM  300 newsstand  https://d1466nnw0ex81e.cloudfront.net/n_ii/originalimage/7181145.jpg

4144955004  9.8  ASM  300 newsstand  

4144955005  9.6  ASM  300 newsstand

My opinion is, cert #s 002 and 003 seem to have some funky things going on to be considered 9.8.

They could also be post slabbing issues, I'm sure.

The 3- 9.8s were just listed. and I'm not saying @mycomicshop is doing anything wrong, make me curious if the consignor is from NY?

On your website, the consignor is Ironside Comics, of Texas. Are they possibly consigning for someone else?

I'm assuming the answer is MOST PROBABLY NOT, but do you guys have clarity, on who "scamboy" is, from CGC?

Until we get clarity, on exactly why this is limited to reholders/custom labels, it seems like it wouldn't be advisable to do business with "scamboy", if there's any doubt about the legitimacy of comic books that he owns??

Until we get clarity, and an understanding on how books were delivered to CGC in a way that this got past them?

Oh yea, curious what the second highest price was on a 9.6 newsstand in 2023??  It was this one, on January 1st 2023.  4140765015

That submission was on  11/11/2022, and included the following 3-ASM 300, 9.8s.

 4140765016, 4140765017 and 4140765018.

All 3 have the "very light spine stress lines to cover" grading notes.

There is going to be a big fog over this, until light is shown.

[wiparker824]

On 1/22/2024 at 12:25 PM, sledgehammer said:

This is what I see as the problem with not knowing a timeline on when we will hear "who" CGC believes is behind this:

It seems to me to be an extreme example of a coincidence, that @mycomicshop would list 3-  9.8 ASM Newsstands right now, all from the same submission

I brought it up earlier that I would now be viewing submissions on books listed with a lot more scrutiny. The listing prices are quite high for the current market, but offers are being accepted

Here is what I see.

This cert, of a 9.6 newsstand, sold for the highest price (by quite a bit) of a 9.6 in 2023.  4144955001 sold on June 19th, 2023

I think that's intriguing ( and please, somebody check the sale if possible ) , considering the speculation on shill bidding in many of "scamboy's" auctions, when you consider this:

Here are the other books in that submission of 12/12/22:

4144955002  9.8  ASM  300 newsstand   https://d1466nnw0ex81e.cloudfront.net/n_ii/originalimage/7181147.jpg

4144955003  9.8  ASM  300 newsstand  https://d1466nnw0ex81e.cloudfront.net/n_ii/originalimage/7181145.jpg

4144955004  9.8  ASM  300 newsstand  

4144955005  9.6  ASM  300 newsstand

My opinion is, cert #s 002 and 003 seem to have some funky things going on to be considered 9.8.

They could also be post slabbing issues, I'm sure.

The 3- 9.8s were just listed. and I'm not saying @mycomicshop is doing anything wrong, make me curious if the consignor is from NY?

On your website, the consignor is Ironside Comics, of Texas. Are they possibly consigning for someone else?

I'm assuming the answer is MOST PROBABLY NOT, but do you guys have clarity, on who "scamboy" is, from CGC?

Until we get clarity, on exactly why this is limited to reholders/custom labels, it seems like it wouldn't be advisable to do business with "scamboy", if there's any doubt about the legitimacy of comic books that he owns??

Until we get clarity, and an understanding on how books were delivered to CGC in a way that this got past them?

Oh yea, curious what the second highest price was on a 9.6 newsstand in 2023??  It was this one, on January 1st 2023.  4140765015

That submission was on  11/11/2022, and included the following 3-ASM 300, 9.8s.

 4140765016, 4140765017 and 4140765018.

All 3 have the "very light spine stress lines to cover" grading notes.

There is going to be a big fog over this, until light is shown.

I’ve been following a similar thread with regards to CL and ASM 194. Specifically they have 2 9.8’s ending tonight of that book. One is a direct (4344978004) and one is a newsstand (4287881001). Currently they are both sitting at 1700 and 1800 bids with the newsstand slightly higher. 

Neither book is on the list, but given that roughly 11% of the census of 9.8’s in this book are on the list these 2 sales are intriguing to me.

Also, one other tidbit, the newsstand copy isn’t on the list but a book from that same submission 4287881003 is on the list and has yet to be crossed off. Is it because the 003 book was submitted for a custom label and the 001 book was not? We don’t know because we aren’t being told how this list was compiled or how books are being determined to be clean and then crossed off.

Im not saying CL is listing a bad book, or has done anything wrong, but I can’t see how these books being sold without the full picture isn’t at all concerning to the buyers who are aware of this situation. I guess we will see how the final hammer price compares tonight. 

Edited January 22 by wiparker824

[MasterChief]

On 1/22/2024 at 7:34 AM, agamoto said:

On 1/22/2024 at 3:16 AM, drotto said:

We should not let this thread go away completely.  I still want updates, and we need to keep applying pressure to change the problems.

As the frequency of comments in this thread begins to wane and the community and CGC continue to process this incidence, I wanted to provide more concrete information below in order to clarify options available to the community in these circumstances.

If you have incurred financial loss due to purchasing comics online that were subsequently swapped out with different books, this constitutes criminal fraudulent misrepresentation, and any online transaction involving these books or shipment of them across state lines is considered felony wire fraud. CGC has requested you report such incidents to them via email at ReportFraud@CollectiblesGroup.com. However, this should not be your only course of action. It is essential, whether you purchased the item in person with cash or over the internet, to report the details to the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) at https://reportfraud.ftc.gov. The FTC is tasked with protecting consumers and addressing issues of fraud and deception in the marketplace. 

Moreover, any fraudulent transaction that occurred online should also be reported to the Federal Bureau of Investigation’s Internet Crime Complaint Center (IC3) at https://www.ic3.gov/. The IC3 is instrumental in gathering reports on internet-related criminal activities and forwarding them to the appropriate law enforcement agencies for further investigation. While CGC has expressed their intention to fairly compensate those who have suffered losses, the specifics of this compensation are still not clear. It is crucial for victims to understand that there are no individual legal remedies for recovering losses without first filing a report with the proper law enforcement authorities. CGC cannot and will not file this report for you, as they are not the direct victims of this fraud.

Technically speaking, one could argue CGC was inadvertently involved in facilitating the fraud against consumers, but it's critical to remember they are also victims of fraudulent misrepresentation here. That, however, is a civil matter between the responsible parties and CGC. Had the fraud not been discovered by CGC's customers, CGC theoretically would have profited considerably from the scheme, given the amount of fees involved in grading and re-grading such a significant number of high-grade books in addition to their reholder fees. CGC can indeed take legal action against those they determine responsible for damaging their reputation, covering costs associated with reimbursing victims, private investigations, legal fees, and process mitigation. However, what they cannot do is 'press charges' or 'prosecute' anyone who may have defrauded individual customers with a swapped book. The consumers, not CGC, are the victims of this fraud. While CGC has pledged to hold those responsible accountable 'to the fullest extent of the law,' they might wish to provide clearer communication to customers and victims about which specific 'law' they are referring to. CGC should clarify whether their legal team intends to represent all victims, including CGC, in any potential future lawsuit they may file. Additionally, CGC should make it clear to customers and victims that third parties like PayPal, eBay, Instagram, etc., cannot file a fraud report on an individual’s behalf either.

Furthermore, CGC should also inform concerned customers and victims that sending any suspect book to CGC before consulting with local/state/federal law enforcement, personal legal representation, or before filing any criminal complaints could potentially jeopardize any direct legal recourse for recovering losses from those indicted and convicted for this fraud in a criminal court.

Others in this thread have expressed skepticism about the effectiveness of such reporting. However, it is important to understand that failing to report these incidents assuredly guarantees that no action will be taken. The collective reporting of these crimes greatly assists federal agencies in identifying and tackling such fraudulent schemes. These steps not only aid in your pursuit of justice but also contribute to the broader effort to combat online fraud and protect others from similar deceptive practices. As individuals who have suffered from these fraudulent activities, it is your right and responsibility to yourself, to other victims, and to potential victims, to report these incidents.

That's my 2 cents. 

Great post. Thanks for taking the time to write it.

If I may, a few minor points of clarification:

1.    Reporting Fraud to the FTC.

You don’t have to be a “victim” of fraud to file a complaint with the FTC. Just having knowledge of a scam or fraud is enough. From the FTC website:

“At ReportFraud.ftc.gov, consumers will find a streamlined and user-friendly way to submit reports to the FTC about scams, frauds, and bad business practices. The FTC has long encouraged consumers to report these issues to the FTC when they encounter them—whether or not they lost money to the fraud. Every time you report scams or bad business practices to the FTC, you’re helping to protect your community.” [emphasis added]

“If you think you’ve spotted a scam, tell the FTC at ReportFraud.ftc.gov to help fight fraud in your community. The FTC uses reports like yours to investigate and bring cases against fraud, scams, and bad business practices, and to spot trends and educate people about scams.”

Reference:
Reporting fraud 101: protect your community by reporting scams
https://consumer.ftc.gov/consumer-alerts/2023/04/reporting-fraud-101-protect-your-community-reporting-scams

2.    Possible Federal Crimes Committed by Perpetrator(s) of “Slab Swap.”

If a criminal matter, initiated by FTC complaints of consumer fraud and forwarded to the FBI and the U.S. Postal Inspection Service for investigation and prosecution, the potential federal crimes would be Mail Fraud and Wire Fraud. Offenders face the prospect of imprisonment for not more than 20 years, a fine of not more than $250,000 (not more than $500,000 for organizations), an order to pay victim restitution, and the confiscation of any property realized from the offense.

In order to convict, the government must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant (1) used either mail or wire communications in the foreseeable furtherance, (2) of a scheme to defraud, (3) involving a material deception, (4) with the intent to deprive another of, (5) either property or honest services.
 

3.    Are Multiple Persons Involved with Perpetrating “Slab Swap?”  (Another Possible Federal Offense)

Aiding and Abetting, Attempt, and Conspiracy

Attempting or conspiring to commit mail or wire fraud or aiding and abetting the commission of those offenses carries the same penalties as the underlying offense. In order to aid and abet another to commit a crime it is necessary that a defendant in some sort associate themselves with the venture, that he/she participate in it as in something that he/she wishes to bring about, that he/she seek by action to make it succeed.

To prove conspiracy to commit either wire or mail fraud, the government must establish that: “(1) two or more persons, directly or indirectly, reached an agreement to devise and execute a scheme to defraud; (2) the defendant knew the unlawful purpose of the agreement; and (3) the defendant joined in the agreement willfully, that is, with the intent to further the unlawful purpose.”

Reference:
Mail and Wire Fraud: A Brief Overview of Federal Criminal Law
https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc96709/m1/1/high_res_d/R41930_2011Jul21.pdf

Edited January 22 by MasterChief

[BrashL]

On 1/22/2024 at 1:19 PM, toro said:

The competitors put out an email today that basically said our cases are better than the other guys. 

Can anyone say with a straight face at this point that they're wrong? I understand why they haven't from a business standpoint, but I'd still like to hear CGC admit there is a problem and commit to bringing out a world class case ASAP. Hell, they could limit it to the highest tiers to clean out old inventory for all the modern spec stuff and them fully switch over after that. 

[Sweet Lou 14]

On 1/22/2024 at 2:24 PM, comicwiz said:

If yours is a SS book, then all I can say is that the methods used to discern a swap are very different from what I believe happened with certain SS books, which may be why they are on the impacted list. I have not had a chance to review more than a handful, but suffice it to say that it was wise of you to not go by the dealers assertions alone. It is rather unfortunate to hear how your situation has since been handled. Please feel free to keep us updated.

Nope, mine is a blue label.  I will certainly let everyone know what happens next.

[Sweet Lou 14]

@CGC Mike I'm not sure if it's something you did -- regardless, I thank you -- but I just received the following email from CGC:

Hello Lou, 
 
We are reaching out to provide you with an update on the Holder Review that you recently submitted to CGC.  A senior grader has reviewed your book and determined that it was not impacted by the holder tampering incident, which you can read more about here: https://cgc.click/hti.
 
We will be reholdering your book with a new certification number before shipping it back to you.
 
We appreciate you working with us to resolve this incident. 
 
Thank you, 
Allison C.
Customer Service

[bc]

On 1/22/2024 at 4:24 PM, Sweet Lou 14 said:

@CGC Mike I'm not sure if it's something you did -- regardless, I thank you -- but I just received the following email from CGC:

Hello Lou, 
 
We are reaching out to provide you with an update on the Holder Review that you recently submitted to CGC.  A senior grader has reviewed your book and determined that it was not impacted by the holder tampering incident, which you can read more about here: https://cgc.click/hti.
 
We will be reholdering your book with a new certification number before shipping it back to you.
 
We appreciate you working with us to resolve this incident. 
 
Thank you, 
Allison C.
Customer Service

Glad it worked out for you Lou!  

-bc

[Nick Furious]

On 1/22/2024 at 1:24 PM, comicwiz said:

If yours is a SS book, then all I can say is that the methods used to discern a swap are very different from what I believe happened with certain SS books, which may be why they are on the impacted list

I'm curious what the theories are on ways to commit fraud with the signature series books.  I'm not clever enough to think up any that make sense.  If you swap out a book, you lose the witness verification on the legit signature, so it wouldn't make sense to do that.  

[Nick Furious]

On 1/22/2024 at 3:24 PM, Sweet Lou 14 said:

@CGC Mike I'm not sure if it's something you did -- regardless, I thank you -- but I just received the following email from CGC:

Hello Lou, 
 
We are reaching out to provide you with an update on the Holder Review that you recently submitted to CGC.  A senior grader has reviewed your book and determined that it was not impacted by the holder tampering incident, which you can read more about here: https://cgc.click/hti.
 
We will be reholdering your book with a new certification number before shipping it back to you.
 
We appreciate you working with us to resolve this incident. 
 
Thank you, 
Allison C.
Customer Service

Good to hear.  A little unsettling to learn that this wasn't being given priority treatment to begin with.  

[DC#]

As a follow-up to the current status of re-holdering.   I sent in an ASM 300 9.8 in a 2nd Gen slab for a re-holder - mailed off about a week before this news broke.   My book WAS NOT one of the books listed on the CGC list.  

Just received the book:

- Book retained the 9.8 grade

- Book retained the same certification number but with a new grading date of 1/4/2024

- No pictures yet on the CGC site.

The one odd thing which may be some CGC internal process - when I clicked through My Submissions on this book it takes me to a totally different certification number that shows the same grading date but with no grade listed.    

https://www.cgccomics.com/certlookup/0908826005/ - this is cert on the actual book I just received and matches the original 2nd Gen slab

https://www.cgccomics.com/certlookup/4369276001/ - this is the cert you get when clicking through My Submissions/Submission #.   

 

Edited January 22 by DC#

[comicwiz]

On 1/22/2024 at 4:34 PM, Nick Furious said:

I'm curious what the theories are on ways to commit fraud with the signature series books.  I'm not clever enough to think up any that make sense.  If you swap out a book, you lose the witness verification on the legit signature, so it wouldn't make sense to do that.  

I guess it depends on how you think the swaps occurred. And it's not a theory as much as observations made, comparing the same trends that allowed me to catch the swaps I did. It's encumbent on all of us to at least acknolwedge the process and protocols have been exploited, otherwise there would be no thread 364 pages long discussing "holder tampering" of 350 impacted comics, as per CGC's claim thus far.

[Crimsonira]

On 1/9/2024 at 8:06 AM, wiparker824 said:

Yes, I have direct evidence the same shop ID’d that sold the JIM 85 SS to @Crimsonira also had that AF 15 6.5 SS in their possession before the reholder/custom label, and also had a AF 15 2.5 SS, and AF 15 4.5 SS - these 3 being from a single submission. Also agree that these books may not necessarily have been tampered with. They also have other big SS books not on this list in the same style of having Stan Lee sign on the back cover as the AF 15. 

Hi Everyone just got word that my JIM 85 is all good no tampering!!  They are going to relabel and send back!

[NewWorldOrder]

On 1/22/2024 at 11:19 AM, toro said:

The competitors put out an email today that basically said our cases are better than the other guys. 

... but their final prices at auction sure aren't better.

 

I do not want to hear anymore from their "supposed competitors."   There is barely only one and they have missed more opportunities to capture market share then the Buffalo Bills at winning Superbowl's.  So if CGC truly ever has a real competitor they haven't opened up business yet.  You can write those other losers off.  Right now CGC stands alone.  Like it or not.

Edited January 22 by NewWorldOrder

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 1/22/2024 at 6:06 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

... but their final prices at auction sure aren't better.

 

What’s the current differential?

Edited January 22 by THE_BEYONDER

[NewWorldOrder]

On 1/22/2024 at 3:11 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

What’s the differential?

15-20%

[BrashL]

On 1/22/2024 at 5:06 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

... but their final prices at auction sure aren't better.

 

I do not want to hear anymore from their "supposed competitors."   There is barely only one and they have missed more opportunities to capture market share then the Buffalo Bills at winning Superbowl's.  So if CGC truly ever has a real competitor they haven't opened up business yet.  You can write those other losers off.  Right now CGC stands alone.  Like it or not.

LOL, OK I’ll let them know to close up shop.  They sell at a 10-15% discount if any, that’s not a hard gap to close. If CGC doesn’t change anything after this (including a new case) that gap can close very quickly. We’ll see.  

[comicjel]

As "maybe" this thread winds down, I find an aspect of the scam, as I believe we think it happened, to still not make sense to me so much.

The original "discovered" swap that started all this (i.e. the reholder to get the ASM 252 9.8 MJI).  To accomplish this scam, we think the guy had 2 books - a newstand 9.8 and a MJI 9.4 (or was it 9.2??), and that he sent in the MJI 9.4 with the Newstand 9.8 label and ended up with a reholdered MJI 9.8.

What really still bugs me about this specific swap is how the scammer "ever" would have felt confident enough to try to get CGC to both reholder this book (that presumably had a tampered outer holder) "and" to get them to effectively admit that they missed the MJI when originally graded "and" to feel confident enough that they would not go back and look at the original scan of the book.  To me that seems like adding multiple levels of risk to a scam that was working pretty seamlessly.  The scammer is going to take all that "extra" risk for what would effectively be a one-time benefit?? It's not like you could claim that they missed the MJI multiple times and not draw attention to yourself, right?  if adding this wrinkle causes CGC to go back and compare to the original scan, EVERYTHING is blown up!! - this money printing machine just seizes up!

I know you guys are going to say "crooks are dumb" and "crooks get careless"... but it is just an aspect of this scam that I can not shake! - I guess it is what makes me think that this is much bigger than it appears to us.   

Edited January 23 by comicjel
fix

[NewWorldOrder]

On 1/22/2024 at 3:21 PM, BrashL said:

LOL, OK I’ll let them know to close up shop.  They sell at a 10-15% discount if any, that’s not a hard gap to close. If CGC doesn’t change anything after this (including a new case) that gap can close very quickly. We’ll see.  

Yes they are failures because they failed time and time again to make any real strides to become a legitimate threat when CGC has allowed them to come in.  CGC is WWE and they are WCW.  Eventually WCW went under, and bought by WWE.  Heck even WCW put up a valiant fight.  So that Voldey has been useless.  I would love a true comic grading company WAR!  Like we did with the Monday Night Wars of the late 90's.  Consumer wins when that happens!

No major dealer uses them to sell big books on a consistent basis.

Their verified signature program has proven to not-trustworthy.

That 10-20% gap has been that way since they opened up shop so let me know when they close that gap and I will gladly start submitting to them as well.

Everyone can agree competition is good thing, I am just waiting for a real company to actually show up to challenge them. So far nothing in 24 years.

Edited January 22 by NewWorldOrder

[scooter99]

What would make perfect sense would be for CGC to buy Voldermart.  Not only reduce whatever competition they may be, but for the better case technology. 

[NewWorldOrder]

On 1/22/2024 at 3:32 PM, scooter99 said:

What would make perfect sense would be for CGC to buy Voldermart.  Not only reduce whatever competition they may be, but for the better case technology. 

haha see my above post for that exact comparison.   WWE  and WCW