ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[Steven Valdez]

On 1/27/2024 at 2:09 AM, Stefan_W said:

Based on the comments on my videos I would completely agree with the bolded point. I think a big source of difference is the people who have accounts with CGC and participate on a CGC forum are typically people who buy and sell slabs. It does not have to be that, but I am speaking about the majority of people on these boards. 

The audience for YouTube comic book channels is very different in that it spans more broadly across the comic community, and as such it includes both people who submit books and those who do not. Some of the people who are commenting in those reply sections are not into submitting books to begin with, and for that crowd the scam was one more reason that justifies not sending anything in for grading. There is also a crowd of people who are pretty dedicated to going from channel to channel and posting their hatred of CGC in every comment section they can find. 

So when you look at the composition of the groups of people on these boards and those writing in comments sections on YouTube I think the differences you correctly identify make sense. 

A lot of what I see on YouTube though is collectors who are saying they're afraid to buy CGC-slabbed books from now on, for fear they may have been tampered with. So not just people who submit directly to CGC, but the buyers at the end of the line.

[s-dali]

Since it seems that all the effected books are beyond my budget, it's highly unlikely that I will end up with one. However, I still find this situation very concerning. It will effect my purchasing habits. If I have a choice of buying a current  CGC slab or a current Voldy slab, I'll be going with Voldy. Even though it may defy logic, I'll still have that "what if" feeling. What if someone switched out a book missing an MVS with one that doesn't? It doesn't even need to be a high dollar book for this scam to work. The high dollar ones are the only ones caught so far. My confidence that the book that was graded by CGC is the book in the case is shaken to it's core right now. 

[shadroch]

On 1/26/2024 at 8:16 AM, Steven Valdez said:

A lot of what I see on YouTube though is collectors who are saying they're afraid to buy CGC-slabbed books from now on, for fear they may have been tampered with. So not just people who submit directly to CGC, but the buyers at the end of the line.

I have not submitted a book to CGC in over twenty years. I'd estimate I bought about 2,000 slabs in the same period.  I'd several thousand dollars put aside for books in the MCS Prime auction but used the money to buy a raw collection instead.  My confidence in CGC has been shattered.  I'm becoming more and more convinced that this scandal involves insiders in Florida.  I have no proof or smoking gun, but something smells very rotten.

[Stefan_W]

On 1/26/2024 at 10:16 AM, Steven Valdez said:

A lot of what I see on YouTube though is collectors who are saying they're afraid to buy CGC-slabbed books from now on, for fear they may have been tampered with. So not just people who submit directly to CGC, but the buyers at the end of the line.

This is a huge factor that extends the impact of the scandal beyond the number of books that were directly tampered with. From what I am seeing sales are down, but sales were already continuing to drop as we slide out of the comic boom era and back to where we were in 2019-ish. 

I am watching the market as well as I can, but I don't think we have an accurate handle on how much damage the incident has done to sales outside of the books that were commonly tampered with (NM98 news stand, etc). Logic tells me it has had some impact, but I don't know much of continuing drops is just that the market was always going to drop in Jan 2024. 

[comicjel]

On 1/26/2024 at 10:36 AM, shadroch said:

I have not submitted a book to CGC in over twenty years. I'd estimate I bought about 2,000 slabs in the same period.  I'd several thousand dollars put aside for books in the MCS Prime auction but used the money to buy a raw collection instead.  My confidence in CGC has been shattered.  I'm becoming more and more convinced that this scandal involves insiders in Florida.  I have no proof or smoking gun, but something smells very rotten.

I feel that many of us on these Boards have a vested interest for CGC to continue to succeed and improve full stop.

We sleuth, we point out what we find, we compare notes, we criticize... with the goal that improvements will be made. 

[BrashL]

On 1/26/2024 at 6:33 AM, comicwiz said:

That doesn't go far enough - the patterns I'm seeing here, ranging from grade dates/notes, impossible achievement of time gaps between changes and flips, AND exact sale date matches on a string of books is the kind of coordination that 's akin to not only knowing who is working security at a planned heist, but right down to knowing the colour of underwear they're wearing.

On 1/26/2024 at 9:16 AM, comicjel said:

It's just circumstantial, and speculation on my part, but I just feel there is an aspect that goes beyond just gaming the reholder system.   

I wonder if we'll ever get an answer on this. I've been fairly adamant that the main issue is the case itself and until that's addressed nothing is fixed, but until CGC addresses some of what comicwiz has been finding I'm going to assume this is bigger than a case issue. The 9.8's with notes alone is so suspicious and out of the norm that it demands an answer. I go back to what 9.9 Newstand said about this guy claiming he was tight with CGC at the highest levels. I think what comicwiz is finding all but confirms that. This guy must have had some premium pipeline that he used to get this done. If that's the case, whomever was facilitating that has to be fired immediately and every book handled by that employee has to now be suspect. I went back and listened to what Matt said in his interview and he states that the "individual" is not an employee or "associated" with an employee. I don't think this in any way eliminates the possibility that the scammer was well known, had relationships with one or many employees, and utilized them to get the notes added, express service, and blind eye towards what he was doing. There is no way someone gets that kind of treatment by submitting 350 books. This guy must have been a major whale to get that sort of treatment, submissions in the thousands per year at least.

So if CGC has those types of special relationships, who else has been leveraging them in the same way. And the biggest question, why not out this guy? 

[Steven Valdez]

On 1/27/2024 at 2:49 AM, Stefan_W said:

This is a huge factor that extends the impact of the scandal beyond the number of books that were directly tampered with. From what I am seeing sales are down, but sales were already continuing to drop as we slide out of the comic boom era and back to where we were in 2019-ish. 

I am watching the market as well as I can, but I don't think we have an accurate handle on how much damage the incident has done to sales outside of the books that were commonly tampered with (NM98 news stand, etc). Logic tells me it has had some impact, but I don't know much of continuing drops is just that the market was always going to drop in Jan 2024. 

I think it's going to take a while for the full affects of this to play out, the erosion of trust.

[Junkdrawer]

What’s the latest news going forward? Is it just business as usual? Is there tamper evident holders in play? I haven’t had my finger on the pulse on this matter. Thanks,

[ramithard]

On 1/25/2024 at 9:28 PM, Lightning55 said:

Not bothering me a bit, and I am sure I am in the 90+% of people who will have zero impact from this scandal.  If you deal in high value books, especially those particular issues that are scam favorites, different story.

I've been subbing right along, hope to increase.  My biggest loss, since being involved with CGC for many years, is the many hours lost reading this 370+ page thread, and following all the links to see "evidence".  Kinda interesting, but exhausting.

I feel the same....kinda like a watching a season of True Detective.....will there ever be a name of a human being ( not alien ) told in this story.... so common buyer knows if he bought from him OR his ebay website OR comic book store?

[comicwiz]

On 1/26/2024 at 12:05 PM, Green Givey Goblin said:

Comics are a commodity, thank god!

Even Madoff's scheme had to come to an end

[thunsicker]

Thank god the thread is finally slowing down.  Gives those of us who came in when the thread was hundreds of pages long a chance to finally catch up.  The concerns I have, other than the myriad of concerns already mentioned are (and if I missed where they were mentioned forgive me.  I’ve tried to read everything, but am sure I missed some posts)

1)  If someone had a way of “manufacturing” green labels and lower grades into blue labels and higher grades wouldn’t that mean that the prices of green labels and lower grades would be artificially inflated and blue labels and higher grades were artificially depressed?  Do we know how many books (other than the vague 350) are possibly involved?  What percentage of the market of specific titles and or issues do they  represent?  Do we need GPAnalysis and GoCollect to somehow note on books that have had a heavy presence that there may be shenanigans in the prices of that issue?  Or do we have to just wait until this blows over to get a feel for the natural level of some of these books.

2)  Again how long this has been going on might be in the threads somewhere, but as someone who has bought only one book in the last couple years it would be nice to know when people in the know think this all started.

3)  Much the same it would sure be nice to know all names/usernames used in this.  At least the people most central to it.  I know everyone is scared of lawsuits.  But I imagine if the perpetrator has a lawyer his concern is elsewhere right now.  I’ve seen one Instagram? EBay? username and one comic shop linked to this but no confirmation.  This only puts those of us NOT in the know at risk.  Especially if there is a board name/board names associated to this.  That would put some of us who use this forum some peace of mind.

4)  Finally, even if there is no information that can be shared at this point from CGC it would be nice to have some kind of timeline to when we might get more information.  As I stated previously I haven’t added to my collection much in years, but prices are finally getting down to where I could think of picking up something again.  Needless to say I’m reluctant to until I know more.

Like most, I’d like to add my kudos to the board and YouTube detectives who have uncovered all this.

[bc]

On 1/25/2024 at 9:20 PM, comicwiz said:

Looks like there isn't any shortage of fun to be had - I'll see your July 16 2023 sale with Certification: 4220532001, and raise you another X-Men 266 9.8, that happened to sell on the exact same day (7/16/2023), and after it reappered in the second sale below (11/21/2023), we also can notice it changed from Direct to Newsstand.

Certification: 2120143023

Beginning first with the cert look-up for posterity:

1) Cert: 2120143023  | ebay  | 7/16/2023 | $760 - note: pics are small, but you can see the cert # on the back pic 

 

2) Difference noted (changes from direct to newsstand) when it reappears for sale on eBay on 11/21/2023 | $1,725

3) Reappers a third time on eBay - Cert: 2120143023 [12/5/2023] - $1,680

  

-bc

[Microchip]

The OG.   Pump the breaks, remember he's a Clink man now.

 

 

Edited January 27 by Microchip

[Ccccccccccccc]

On 1/26/2024 at 8:44 AM, Junkdrawer said:

What’s the latest news going forward? Is it just business as usual? Is there tamper evident holders in play? I haven’t had my finger on the pulse on this matter. Thanks,

I've been following since mid-December and every day since.  My take is CGC slabs are comically (pun intended) easy to open and swap books.  At this point they are just plastic, and it is entirely up to the consumer if you believe the book inside is accurately represented by the label.  It's a complete disaster and in my opinion CGC is trying to keep the details as obfuscated as possible to protect their market share.  I'm not selling all my CGC slabs, but I will never use this company to grade books based on everything I know about their equipment and processes.  

[JollyComics]

Is CGC now desperate?   It seems that everyone backs off with CGC after those big scams.  Also, we have overpaid while QC is totally unreliable.

https://www.cgccomics.com/news/article/12543/

Edited January 27 by JollyComics

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 1/26/2024 at 10:21 PM, JollyComics said:

Is CGC now desperate?   It seems that everyone backs off with CGC after those big scams.  Also, we have overpaid while QC is totally unreliable.

https://www.cgccomics.com/news/article/12543/

[comicwiz]

On 1/26/2024 at 8:04 PM, Microchip said:

The OG.   Pump the breaks, remember he's a Clink man now.

 

 

I will say this much. It is extremely disappointing to hear people who I would have expected better from saying things like the reactions are overblown. Or that the scale has been 'overestimated.' Or, my favourite - that this list is the be-all, and that everything is fine here as long as we refer to this list. Which btw, keeps having both legit books and compromised books crossed-off, along with cert numbers being purged, AND grade dates being wiped.

I have had to use some restraint in not posting the everthing is fine memes - the one most appropriate here is the guy using a vacuum to put out a fire. What exactly are they basing their assertions on? I know that from what I've looked at now since late December, the magnitude of this is difficult to forecast, and I've looked at the data that is being used by CGC. I also know that the "list" is not all-ecompassing. So what is with the charade?

 

[Stefan_W]

On 1/27/2024 at 7:44 AM, comicwiz said:

I will say this much. It is extremely disappointing to hear people who I would have expected better from saying things like the reactions are overblown. Or that the scale has been 'overestimated.' Or, my favourite - that this list is the be-all, and that everything is fine here as long as we refer to this list. Which btw, keeps having both legit books and compromised books crossed-off, along with cert numbers being purged, AND grade dates being wiped.

I have had to use some restraint in not posting the everthing is fine memes - the one most appropriate here is the guy using a vacuum to put out a fire. What exactly are they basing their assertions on? I know that from what I've looked at now since late December, the magnitude of this is difficult to forecast, and I've looked at the data that is being used by CGC. I also know that the "list" is not all-ecompassing. So what is with the charade?

 

People always react from their own vantage points. 

You are spending a great deal of time looking at a large number of books that have absolutely been tampered with, many of which are not on CGC's list, and are seeing that the scope of this is much larger than CGC claims. That is great and the work is important, but it also shapes your viewpoint.

I am looking across my own collection of several hundred slabs and none of those have been tampered with, and I am 100% sure that the books I am bidding on right now at the CL auction have not been tampered with due to my price point and the books I am selecting. That shapes my viewpoint. 

The key here is perspective and understanding where everyone is coming from.

The following is a series of true statements about the scam:

- The scam is important and has impacted on many people.

- The vast majority of comic collectors do not own books that have been tampered with.

- The hobby has been impacted in ways we cannot begin to measure.

- The hobby will continue.

- People's trust in CGC has been shaken.

- A lot of people will continue to send books in to CGC for grading and it will continue to be the gold standard in comic grading.

If your meme shows the flip sides to all of these proverbial coins then please go ahead and share. 

[comicwiz]

On 1/27/2024 at 8:59 AM, Stefan_W said:

- The scam is important and has impacted on many people.

- The vast majority of comic collectors do not own books that have been tampered with

That's a fair assessment. These two points however cannot be mutually exclusive. The vast majority of slab owners now own a holder design that has been exploited. And not just in one perverse way. The kicker is we will never know if it's an exploitation beyond a design deficiency, meaning we won't know the true nature of an exploitation of process or protocol that allowed this many books for this many years to pass through unnoticed.

This is why it's shockwave and magnitude is greater than just the impacted books. These are the ones identified as having a clear line of tampering, as far as establishing a fairly clear chain of evidence, but even in these instances, there are books which have not been identified in the shuffle and flow of changes.

This alone should have given people more pause to the scale and uncertainties, but when we began seeing some unusual developments with purging date of grading and removal of certs - this is when we should have become accustomed to considering the community's collective vantage point remains the nerve center to this expose. Without it, the trust people have in CGC would have remained the status of quo. Don't let the status quo be the way this is dealt with after the work put into exposing what we have.

Edited January 27 by comicwiz

[sledgehammer]

On 1/27/2024 at 7:59 AM, Stefan_W said:

The following is a series of true statements about the scam:

 

- The vast majority of comic collectors do not own books that have been tampered with.

Do you think this language would be on their guarantee page, if there wasn't a reason for it to be?

5. CGC/CSG Holders. This Guarantee does not apply to Collectibles that have been removed from a CGC or CSG holder, or if the CGC or CSG holder containing a Collectible has been damaged, unsealed, tampered with, or altered. The determination as to whether this has occurred shall be at the sole reasonable discretion of Guarantor. Further, this Guarantee does not apply to counterfeit or tampered CGC or CSG holders.

Edited January 27 by sledgehammer