ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[BrashL]

On 2/19/2024 at 10:09 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

Just easier to quote you both. 

I mean until it is known whether the original submitter did in fact receive the same book then this all just speculation. The defects on the book would make it pretty clear as well.

I think there is more information that needs to be known.  Could you say maybe it was switched out by that employee? Maybe, I am sure CGC would look into since it the book was graded in 2022 while that employee was working for them. 

The real questions would be who ever submitted it raw.  Did they get the same book back they originally submitted? Why did the original submitter sell it like that and not sent it back to CGC? How did the guy who sold it to Bryce not see it as well when he bought it?  Because if they got the same book back that was originally submitted then it's could simply be a mis-grade (by mis-grade I mean the grader probably selected the wrong grade by accident on the computer screen). I assume that happens.  Also bad on the original submitter if they did not send it back to CGC and sold it to Bryce's customer that for whatever reason also lacked the basic "buy the book not the grade" and to be honest blind as bat.  Now the rebuttal is why didnt QC catch it, valid 110%. 

I think the problem now is everyone is quick to jump the gun without asking more questions.  Over the years most seasoned people here have seen situations happen and it's more an oversight than criminal.  Case in point me just last month.  I submitted a Daredevil #168, it came back a CGC 9.6.  I knew that was way too high, sure enough I got the book back and it was a VF+ book sitting in a 9.6 holder.  I assumed it was a CGC grading mistake because I got back the SAME BOOK I submitted originally, and it was higher then what I graded it at.  So I sent it back via ME, they re-graded it correctly and I have it back now as the correct grade of CGC 8.5.  No idea if the grader just had slip of a keystroke/mouse click, or just for whatever reason graded it wrong that day, but it sure wasn't anything criminal about it, but rather a mistake by the grader and QC not catching it.

So unless CGC is trying to make me more money because they like me it was just an internal mistake.

This is all well and good but completely dodges the main point. If you buy a book that was graded in 2022 and doesn't it appear to match the grade, unless it is on the infamous list of 350, your only recourse is what you set out above. Now we know for certain there are books in the wild beyond the 350 that were swapped out of their cases by Zanello and apparently a significant population of comics that were grossly misgraded (which is it's own scandal but I'll leave that to the QC thread). In the latter case, we can argue about what recourse should be to the buyer of that comic, but in the former I hope we can all agree the buyer had been defrauded and should be compensated by CGC in the same way the owners of the 350 are supposed to be. The issue is that CGC has stated explicitly that they will be treated the same and will not disclose if they even have a way of distinguishing the two. 

Bottom line: CGC has admitted Zanello swapped books and sold them directly without reholder. Comicwiz has reliably traced this practice to at least 2018. CGC has stated unequivocally that the defrauded buyers of those books will not be compensated. Those facts are indisputable. It's now a small leap of faith to believe the swaps go back much further as others on this board have pointed out he probably didn't start with expensive books like ASM 300. Another small inference means it is very likely there are 1000's of swapped books from this one bad actor, and likely more than just this one individual pulling the scam. These books are most likely tainted forever and will remain in the population with the grade assigned unless they are cracked out. The likelihood of getting a refund as a buyer of these books from anyone is very low as they aren't on any list, we have no defined way of identifying them on sight, and the books have probably changed hands a number of times. 

So now you say: "Buy the book, not the grade", "Do your homework", "Buy From reputable dealers". Which funnily enough is exactly how you should buy raw. The only difference is I can open up a raw book and negotiate condition, not so with CGC. Also the point about CGC is better for Novices; presumably you mean people who won't do any of those things, so I fail to see how they are any safer for them either. 

CGC has a huge problem on their hands and they know it. See CEO's letter, see lawsuits, see pricing changes. They aren't trying to hand wave this all away so I'm not sure why you are. New cases will be released when they burn through their existing inventory and will essentially create a new census for those in the know. Assuming those cases are actually at least Tamper Evident, then we can finally say that buying CGC slabs is the safer choice. A lot of us will be waiting on the sidelines until then.

Rant over. 

[sledgehammer]

On 2/20/2024 at 8:41 AM, comicjel said:

Just checked - no 6/29/22 sale on GoCollect - they do show one sale of it on 8/22/22 for $700 - it is the same comic pictured - was kind of a deceiving group of photos, in that showed several close ups, but none of the lower right corner (also no cream carpet background).

Let me know if you need other info about it.

 

That $700 sale obliterated the other sales noted on GPA at that time period.

[flchris]

On 2/20/2024 at 9:42 AM, sledgehammer said:

Thanks.  That's not the one with this cert #, also sold that day only, on GPA  4046486023.

Ah, didn't realize you were looking for specific cert number. Sorry about that.

[sledgehammer]

On 2/20/2024 at 9:44 AM, flchris said:

Ah, didn't realize you were looking for specific cert number. Sorry about that.

No worries, thanks.  

[comicjel]

On 2/20/2024 at 10:43 AM, sledgehammer said:

That $700 sale obliterated the other sales noted on GPA at that time period.

Yes, and that copy would not be the copy that you would expect to see a premium being paid!

Don't know what to make of it, but all 3 of those 9.8 books from that submission were reported in GPA as being sold on a date that was not listed on GoCollect, and GoCollect reported sales that were not on GPA - just strange that they did not match up? - but likely just a benign anomaly in the way each of those tracking sites gather their data.

Edited February 20 by comicjel

[sledgehammer]

On 2/20/2024 at 9:42 AM, BrashL said:

So now you say: "Buy the book, not the grade", "Do your homework", "Buy From reputable dealers". Which funnily enough is exactly how you should buy raw. The only difference is I can open up a raw book and negotiate condition, not so with CGC. Also the point about CGC is better for Novices; presumably you mean people who won't do any of those things, so I fail to see how they are any safer for them either. 

Coming soon from a reputable dealer near you.

"Black light Specials."

[Dark Knight]

On 2/19/2024 at 8:38 PM, comicjel said:

LOL, I can attest to a CGC "mis-grade"!...

First ever .4 grade!? You can flip it for a million if you wanted!!! Probably the only one in existence! 

[EastEnd1]

On 2/20/2024 at 10:42 AM, BrashL said:

So now you say: "Buy the book, not the grade", "Do your homework", "Buy From reputable dealers". Which funnily enough is exactly how you should buy raw. The only difference is I can open up a raw book and negotiate condition, not so with CGC. Also the point about CGC is better for Novices; presumably you mean people who won't do any of those things, so I fail to see how they are any safer for them either. 

There's no point to having certified grading, and the added cost of it, if you have to shop with the same diligence as a raw book.  And this notion of just "buying from reputable dealers" is beyond disingenuous and pathetically self serving.  

[shadroch]

On 2/20/2024 at 1:43 PM, Dark Knight said:

First ever .4 grade!? You can flip it for a million if you wanted!!! Probably the only one in existence! 

Nothing a little white out won't cure.

[F For Fake]

On 2/20/2024 at 3:48 PM, EastEnd1 said:

There's no point to having certified grading, and the added cost of it, if you have to shop with the same diligence as a raw book.  And this notion of just "buying from reputable dealers" is beyond disingenuous and pathetically self serving.  

This is it exactly. I have always been a big believer in "buy the book, not the label", and that you need to give the book an inspection before buying to see if the listed grade matches up with what your expectations would be for that grade.

BUT

The CGC grading was supposed to take care of things like restoration check, things missing check, things being totally shady check, etc. It was supposed to eliminate that baseline stuff. I will decide for myself if the book is truly a 9.8, but the label is supposed to tell me that I don't need to worry about whether or not the book is complete, or has been monkeyed with.

If I can't trust the label to do that, then it truly serves no purpose whatsoever. I guess in theory you at least get a pretty frame to display the book, but with scuffs and newton rings, even that part isn't true anymore.

Edited February 20 by F For Fake

[Dark Knight]

Moving forward, I expect CGC to tighten up their comic book inspections before assigning a grade. These latest incidents/mishaps from CGC cannot  happen again. They probably need to re-train everyone from the time they receive a package from a customer to shipping out back their property. Step by step, they have to instill stricter guidelines to follow. Security cameras are a must for each department, which I've mentioned before. PSA has had that set-up for a few years now after several past customers (including myself) complained that their cards were damaged during the grading process.

Sure TAT's will be slower, but in my eyes, will be well worth the wait. I do not want to second guess buying a CGC graded comic, thinking if something was missing or if the grade assigned is accurate for that book. I've spent a lot of money towards CGC graded books in my lifetime thinking that each book I paid is all good. I'm hoping CGC can announce soon what added security featues to the slab will be done to prevent bad actors from compromising the slab by switching books and/or labels out. 

Time will tell if any such improvements will be made.

[NewWorldOrder]

On 2/20/2024 at 7:42 AM, BrashL said:

This is all well and good but completely dodges the main point. If you buy a book that was graded in 2022 and doesn't it appear to match the grade, unless it is on the infamous list of 350, your only recourse is what you set out above. Now we know for certain there are books in the wild beyond the 350 that were swapped out of their cases by Zanello and apparently a significant population of comics that were grossly misgraded (which is it's own scandal but I'll leave that to the QC thread). In the latter case, we can argue about what recourse should be to the buyer of that comic, but in the former I hope we can all agree the buyer had been defrauded and should be compensated by CGC in the same way the owners of the 350 are supposed to be. The issue is that CGC has stated explicitly that they will be treated the same and will not disclose if they even have a way of distinguishing the two. 

Bottom line: CGC has admitted Zanello swapped books and sold them directly without reholder. Comicwiz has reliably traced this practice to at least 2018. CGC has stated unequivocally that the defrauded buyers of those books will not be compensated. Those facts are indisputable. It's now a small leap of faith to believe the swaps go back much further as others on this board have pointed out he probably didn't start with expensive books like ASM 300. Another small inference means it is very likely there are 1000's of swapped books from this one bad actor, and likely more than just this one individual pulling the scam. These books are most likely tainted forever and will remain in the population with the grade assigned unless they are cracked out. The likelihood of getting a refund as a buyer of these books from anyone is very low as they aren't on any list, we have no defined way of identifying them on sight, and the books have probably changed hands a number of times. 

So now you say: "Buy the book, not the grade", "Do your homework", "Buy From reputable dealers". Which funnily enough is exactly how you should buy raw. The only difference is I can open up a raw book and negotiate condition, not so with CGC. Also the point about CGC is better for Novices; presumably you mean people who won't do any of those things, so I fail to see how they are any safer for them either. 

CGC has a huge problem on their hands and they know it. See CEO's letter, see lawsuits, see pricing changes. They aren't trying to hand wave this all away so I'm not sure why you are. New cases will be released when they burn through their existing inventory and will essentially create a new census for those in the know. Assuming those cases are actually at least Tamper Evident, then we can finally say that buying CGC slabs is the safer choice. A lot of us will be waiting on the sidelines until then.

Rant over. 

You can absolutely negotiate a price of CGC slab price at any show in the history of comic book conventions since 1999.

I can't think of anytime I didn't actually.

I didn't dodge anything you asked a question about the Teen Titans #44 from that video book and I answered.   I don't know what to tell you anymore.  Yes from what I posted that is probably your only recourse.  I didnt make the rules I am just telling how it works, so if you dont like it you have the option someplace else, stop collecting, or just buy raw.

BrashL say below:

"Another small inference means it is very likely there are 1000's of swapped books from this one bad actor, and likely more than just this one individual pulling the scam. These books are most likely tainted forever and will remain in the population with the grade assigned unless they are cracked out. The likelihood of getting a refund as a buyer of these books from anyone is very low as they aren't on any list, we have no defined way of identifying them on sight, and the books have probably changed hands a number of times. "

Where are the facts to back this up?  It just the same hyperbolic speculation over and over again. 

It sounds like you will be sitting on the sidelines for many years with your current stance on everything so not sure why you bother to keep posting. 

[comicjel]

On 2/20/2024 at 3:43 PM, Dark Knight said:

First ever .4 grade!? You can flip it for a million if you wanted!!! Probably the only one in existence! 

Yes, I did a .6 pre-screen!

Actually, I did need to pay a little premium for it (I think I paid like $150 or something like that) - I collect Spider-Mans, and thought it was cool.

Edited February 20 by comicjel

[BrashL]

On 2/20/2024 at 3:35 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

"Another small inference means it is very likely there are 1000's of swapped books from this one bad actor, and likely more than just this one individual pulling the scam. These books are most likely tainted forever and will remain in the population with the grade assigned unless they are cracked out. The likelihood of getting a refund as a buyer of these books from anyone is very low as they aren't on any list, we have no defined way of identifying them on sight, and the books have probably changed hands a number of times. "

Where are the facts to back this up?  It just the same hyperbolic speculation over and over again. 

It sounds like you will be sitting on the sidelines for many years with your current stance on everything so not sure why you bother to keep posting. 

inference

ĭn′fər-əns

noun

1. The act or process of deriving logical conclusions from premises known or assumed to be true.
2. The act of reasoning from factual knowledge or evidence.
3. Something inferred.

Does that help?

[NewWorldOrder]

On 2/20/2024 at 1:42 PM, BrashL said:

inference

ĭn′fər-əns

noun

1. The act or process of deriving logical conclusions from premises known or assumed to be true.
2. The act of reasoning from factual knowledge or evidence.
3. Something inferred.

Does that help?

no

Because you are making numbers up out of thin air.

That's like me thinking every single CGC slab you currently own is now compromised.   I have no proof, but I know it must be true.

[BrashL]

On 2/20/2024 at 3:45 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

no

Because you are making numbers up out of thin air.

That's like me thinking every single CGC slab you currently own is now compromised.   I have no proof, but I know it must be true.

I don't know why I bother but....do we at least agree with:

Bottom line: CGC has admitted Zanello swapped books and sold them directly without reholder. Comicwiz has reliably traced this practice to at least 2018. CGC has stated unequivocally that the defrauded buyers of those books will not be compensated. Those facts are indisputable. 

[comicwiz]

On 2/20/2024 at 4:35 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

Where are the facts to back this up? 

You're clearly dropping into this thread without having done any reading of previous posts. Read the CGC v Zanello lawsuit, that should give you some clues as to the scale, despite the narrow 350 list we've been told is the limit. People who have bought from the alleged seller are having those books "treated differently", meaning no compensation, unless it's been " reholdered." They're also doing strike throughs on the list with no way to discern what's been cleared and what has been tampered. They are also changing certs on problem books to allow those problem books to be sold minus the 20 questions. There's a few facts to get you started, lots more where those came from.

[shadroch]

On 2/20/2024 at 2:45 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

no

Because you are making numbers up out of thin air.

That's like me thinking every single CGC slab you currently own is now compromised.   I have no proof, but I know it must be true.

It's the opposite. You think none of the slabs can be compromised, which flies in the face of all available information. 

 

 

[NewWorldOrder]

On 2/20/2024 at 1:51 PM, comicwiz said:

You're clearly dropping into this thread without having done any reading of previous posts. Read the CGC v Zanello lawsuit, that should give you some clues as to the scale, despite the narrow 350 list we've been told is the limit. People who have bought from the alleged seller are having those books "treated differently", meaning no compensation, unless it's been " reholdered." They're also doing strike throughs on the list with no way to discern what's been cleared and what has been tampered. They are also changing certs on problem books to allow those problem books to be sold minus the 20 questions. There's a few facts to get you started, lots more where those came from.

So you are saying without a doubt 1000's of CGC slabs have for sure been tampered with?

[NewWorldOrder]

On 2/20/2024 at 1:51 PM, shadroch said:

It's the opposite. You think none of the slabs can be compromised, which flies in the face of all available information. 

 

 

HUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH??????? Where did I say that?

Of course CGC slabs were comprised.  I just am not making up numbers out my arse.

Still waiting on you to rebuttal me on my 100K example on the Hulk 181's.

 

Edited February 20 by NewWorldOrder