ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[grendel013]

I'm on page 71 and thus far the moral of the story is: If you have two graded copies of the same book, slip the lower grade inner into the higher grade outer well and have reholdered. Then remove higher grade from inner well and submit for grading again.

[Buzzetta]

On 12/22/2023 at 6:39 PM, VintageComics said:

I don't think most average people can think in terms complex systems. 

Just like examining a 2D painting is different for AI, putting a metal fender in place on an assembly line is different than picking up a comic book, turning the pages and assessing and assessing them all.

You might eventually be able to make it happen in the distant future with NASA type tech, but by then all human labor will have been replaced. 

I think the challenge is in the complexity and how fine of a handling touch is needed AS WELL as the diverse methods of analysis AND cost structure are all going to be the obstacle. 

You can do one thing well, but tying all of those things together is space age stuff. 

 

I already believe that AI would be more reliable in determining page quality than the graders.   Too many times I have seen page quality designation become better or worse with a simple resubmit.   At the minimum there would be a proper gauge for Cream to OW, OW-W, and White. 

[jsilverjanet]

On 12/22/2023 at 5:44 PM, Buzzetta said:

I already believe that AI would be more reliable in determining page quality than the graders.   Too many times I have seen page quality designation become better or worse with a simple resubmit.   At the minimum there would be a proper gauge for Cream to OW, OW-W, and White. 

AI is moving at a very rapid pace, technology moves faster than we can comprehend at times

I know i've seen examples of how it can help the average joe write sentences that make sense

might be worth it for some folks to look into

 

[jsilverjanet]

I wish I was a marketing rep for the other company, so many opportunities...

[MAR1979]

On 12/22/2023 at 6:27 PM, Buzzetta said:

This has more merit than your previous statement but that might be more in alignment of a federal matter like the Mastro card case back in 2015? 2016? when he admitted to cutting the corners of the Wagner Tobacco card.  

Even though it is official US Public Record PSA does not acknowledge it. https://www.psacard.com/cert/0000001

PSA has literally been rotten the core since their first officially certified and slabbed card (see link above) yet they still have a virtual monopoly lock on the Trading Card hobby. As CGC is the PSA for Comics they too have no need to address this kerfuffle. Simply keep quiet rake them benji's in.

Edited December 22, 2023 by MAR1979

[VintageComics]

On 12/22/2023 at 6:44 PM, Buzzetta said:

I already believe that AI would be more reliable in determining page quality than the graders.   Too many times I have seen page quality designation become better or worse with a simple resubmit.   At the minimum there would be a proper gauge for Cream to OW, OW-W, and White. 

Grading is FAR more than just page quality. 

On 12/22/2023 at 6:47 PM, jsilverjanet said:

AI is moving at a very rapid pace, technology moves faster than we can comprehend at times

Not everyone is incapable of comprehending real possibilities and separating them from improbable ones. 

Using AI for various aspects of grading? I've already said I wouldn't be surprised if it was happening but there is no way AI is grading books without human involvement any time soon.That's spaceage thinking that is just fairy tale stuff for the foreseeable future. By the time this happens, we'll only be half human. 

And THAT is the point I'm making.

[skybolt]

It's interesting that the bad market forced this guy to get sloppy and start messing around with more rare Mark Jeweler books, which got him caught. When he was raking in big bucks selling newsstands for triple what they're selling for today, he was content with sticking with what works and is mostly undetected.

On a side note, if CGC is forced to pay back customers for fraudulent books, would they pay the current FMV or what the buyer paid when the market was hot? I'm assuming the former.

[Buzzetta]

On 12/22/2023 at 6:43 PM, grendel013 said:

I'm on page 71 and thus far the moral of the story is: If you have two graded copies of the same book, slip the lower grade inner into the higher grade outer well and have reholdered. Then remove higher grade from inner well and submit for grading again.

 

[Buzzetta]

On 12/22/2023 at 6:54 PM, VintageComics said:

Grading is FAR more than just page quality. 

Again.  Reading comprehension Roy.  I was specific to page quality. 

[GDN]

On 12/22/2023 at 7:56 AM, sledgehammer said:

I don't think he means marrying in the sense of "pages" and "covers" and such.

Just resubmitting in the sense we've been talking about.

 

The reason I though he might have married the book in the H181 with the entire pg 10 missing is that the grading date of that book was the same as seven other books that look like they were his books as they were all the usual suspect books we've seen on his eBay page.  In the reholder scam the grading date doesn't get updated and therefore I thought would be a submission from someone else that the scammer bought to either swap or marry.  It wouldn't' make sense that he was the one who originally submitted the book with pg 10 missing and got the green label.  Therefore it seemed like the blue label grading date was the actual date it got the blue label and the only way that happened was either an inside job to overlook the missing pg 10 OR he married in a pg 10 or an entire interior....I'm not sure how that all works.

[Prince Namor]

On 12/23/2023 at 6:27 AM, Buzzetta said:

This has more merit than your previous statement but that might be more in alignment of a federal matter like the Mastro card case back in 2015? 2016? when he admitted to cutting the corners of the Wagner Tobacco card.  

Has there ever been an Investigation like that for a Comic Book crime? It seems the authorities don't take high-dollar comics nearly as seriously as they do Sports Cards...

[skybolt]

Obviously we're working with circumstantial evidence at this point, but if it does turn out the seller had help on the inside, it really simplifies a lot for him. That means he wasn't recreating slabs, he didn't have a Doctor Who level sonic screwdriver to open and weld slabs shut, he didn't need to know how to marry inserts or buy additional lower graded books to get the inserts needed to marry with the qualified books. All he needed to be was a regular Joe like us (buying and selling books), while someone else manipulated the grading info before slabbing. My gut tells me that all of the qualified Hulk #181's that were graded into a blue label still have missing stamps and pages on the inside.

[Buzzetta]

On 12/22/2023 at 7:00 PM, Prince Namor said:

Has there ever been an Investigation like that for a Comic Book crime? It seems the authorities don't take high-dollar comics nearly as seriously as they do Sports Cards...

The only fed investigation into a scam I know off the top of my head involving comic books would be the money laundering scam run through heritage.   Give me some time and I am sure I can go through my stuff and find something.  If I did though it would probably involve the typical wire fraud charges. 

 

As far as doctoring or failing to disclose restoration or alterations I do not believe there has been a case that has involved that.  @jaybuck43 might know that. 

Edited December 23, 2023 by Buzzetta

[Prince Namor]

On 12/23/2023 at 6:44 AM, Buzzetta said:

I already believe that AI would be more reliable in determining page quality than the graders.   Too many times I have seen page quality designation become better or worse with a simple resubmit.   At the minimum there would be a proper gauge for Cream to OW, OW-W, and White. 

Yep, because the human eye can be fooled by that color spectrum - a program would immediately adjust. You could have AI do 95% of the work, and then an employee flip through and count the pages, which I'm not 100% sure is always done NOW anyway - and save time and money and speed up the process tremendously.

[Prince Namor]

It's not beyond the possibility that there are people who submit a lot of books to CGC who KNOW a grader. And in knowing a grader or two, or someone who works in an important position at CGC... someone they could possibly even influence. Someone like that would HATE the idea of AI doing most of the grading, because they wouldn't be able to get that edge.

The truth of the matter is... the people who handle and make decisions on books that sell for anywhere between $7-8,000 and into the MILLIONS, are sometimes not really paid in a way that could keep them from being influenced by outside money. They become targets for unethical sellers, looking to game the system.

(And it;'s not about - THESE DAYS and things are terrible now - worse than ever nonsense - This hobby has ALWAYS attracted people like this)

IT just makes sense that because of the HIGH DOLLAR value of what CGC does, there are people who are going to find ways to manipulate the system. We've all already seen how it's been done before. 

 

Edited December 23, 2023 by Prince Namor

[mephistopheles]

On 12/22/2023 at 2:46 PM, comicwiz said:

This one takes us back to a two-for auction, with an IH 181 CGC graded 7.0 qualified. I will attach photos for this listing. I want you to pay close attention to the top right corner - that horizonotal colour break. And that vertical break that runs parallel to the spine, starting from the arrow, down Wolvie's forearm. I know the pics arent the greatest, but you should at least see those characteristics well enough to compare to the other.

 

[Prince Namor]

On 12/23/2023 at 5:25 AM, Prince Namor said:

Can you imagine? A 100% fair, near perfect, CONSISTENT, and FAST program to do grading?

That never takes a day off, or gets tired?

It would blow the wheels off the old model. 

And it would also make it more difficult for someone to GAME THE SYSTEM. 

[rjpb]

It's probably been covered already, I don't have time to read the whole thread, but given that people are still mentioning swapping books out of the slab, it would seem a whole lot easier to swap out the labels, which I'm guessing is what happened.

[comicwiz]

On 12/22/2023 at 7:21 PM, mephistopheles said:

Nice job! What a difference it makes when you have good, clear images. 

Edited December 23, 2023 by comicwiz

[mephistopheles]

On 12/22/2023 at 2:32 PM, comicwiz said:

How about 2022? 

Certification: 4115260001

Do you have the sale date?  And the sale date for 1309487005 too?