ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[Comics]

On 12/22/2023 at 2:59 PM, brute_nm said:

And there's your proof

Yup

[Comics]

On 12/22/2023 at 2:59 PM, brute_nm said:

And there's your proof

This was another phrase the same seller would use again and again - a little ironic now "Trust in CGC, it is a Standard amongst Collectors"

[bc]

-bc

[jsilverjanet]

one thing i would caution is plenty of people copy and paste what others do

i use a blue background on my raw scans because some people here were doing it

i started taking group pictures on a wire rack because i saw someone else doing it

i started taking group pictures against my wooden kitchen table and i see others doing it

it's possible (but probably unlikely) that people might have copied wording from this seller at some point

"CGC IT"

[Comics]

On 12/22/2023 at 3:07 PM, jsilverjanet said:

one thing i would caution is plenty of people copy and paste what others do

i use a blue background on my raw scans because some people here were doing it

i started taking group pictures on a wire rack because i saw someone else doing it

i started taking group pictures against my wooden kitchen table and i see others doing it

it's possible (but probably unlikely) that people might have copied wording from this seller at some point

"CGC IT"

Yes. I used multiple phrases and capitalization and came up with this. And the language used is very similar. I did not say it was 100%. That said the use of those specific phrases seemed to be limited to just seller. 

[jsilverjanet]

I was thinking about this "buy from reputable sellers"

and someone asked or questioned the term

I'm curious what some of the bigger dealers think about this mess (if they are aware, I haven't seen any of them post on here as of yet)

reputable is very interesting term in itself

"having a good reputation"

not something that can be easily applied to just anyone, certainly some have history, some of it is not readily available or only available to a few that remember things here and there, but I guess that's a personal decision for everyone

be careful who you buy books from, or how they acquired them to begin with (stolen or under false pretenses)

as Sade once sade, "is it a crime"

my last post

have a hot date tonight

[Bo1983]

On 12/22/2023 at 4:03 PM, brute_nm said:

As we approach 75 pages, I'm worried that the details of the seller and the scam will get lost in all the side conversations and bickering.  Here's my attempt at summarizing what we know right now.

I know this is a rapidly-evolving situation, and stuff will likely change in coming days/weeks, but hopefully this helps distill the thread down to a digestible level.

Nice work!

[BrashL]

On 12/22/2023 at 5:12 PM, jsilverjanet said:

 

be careful who you buy books from, or how they acquired them to begin with (stolen or under false pretenses)

if this is as widespread as it’s looking, who you buy from isn’t relevant anymore because of how many times these books have changed hands. The only way to protect customers is release a list of all the mis-graded books after a full investigation. How they handle liability for those books is a whole other problem.  Anything less than a full mea culpa is a disaster.  

Edited December 22, 2023 by BrashL

[Bo1983]

On 12/22/2023 at 4:56 PM, Changer said:

Hey can we all get back to comic collecting,

btw I have a hulk 181 9.0 I might be willing to sell

Is it missing the value stamp 🤣

Edited December 22, 2023 by Bo1983

[Buzzetta]

On 12/22/2023 at 8:51 AM, trademarkcomics said:

I just got charged extra for two books that CGC changed from Modern to High Value(X-Men 266 and DC Comics Presents 26...apparently worth more than $400???), so I know CGC is still active. This guy gets away with murder for years and I get "caught" trying to slip two comics by in the wrong tier? 

"Which they didn't have to do."

[brute_nm]

On 12/22/2023 at 4:11 PM, Comics said:

Yes. I used multiple phrases and capitalization and came up with this. And the language used is very similar. I did not say it was 100%. That said the use of those specific phrases seemed to be limited to just seller. 

 

The picture backgrounds and Wolverine 1 JSCampbell variant also line up with briva3 sales @agamoto found.  Between that and the language in the description, I think it's pretty definitive.

  

On 12/21/2023 at 8:02 PM, agamoto said:

FYI, here's a pic showing this sellers 20 biggest sales since 2011.

That JSCampbell Wolverine cover... He apparently sold it, twice. In 2022, and again in 2023.

How the frig can this guy afford the eBay fees?!? Surely, eBay has a limit to the number of times the guy can claim no payment before they cut him off. 

 

[bc]

Is this a part of "The System"?

-bc

[Buzzetta]

On 12/22/2023 at 2:44 AM, paqart said:

I agree up to a point. The breakdown happened at CGC. They certified fakes as authentic. CGC should make the victims whole without a lawsuit, and then CGC should prosecute the scammer for whatever they can recover.

This has more merit than your previous statement but that might be more in alignment of a federal matter like the Mastro card case back in 2015? 2016? when he admitted to cutting the corners of the Wagner Tobacco card.  

[Buzzetta]

On 12/22/2023 at 6:12 PM, jsilverjanet said:

I was thinking about this "buy from reputable sellers"

and someone asked or questioned the term

I'm curious what some of the bigger dealers think about this mess (if they are aware, I haven't seen any of them post on here as of yet)

reputable is very interesting term in itself

"having a good reputation"

not something that can be easily applied to just anyone, certainly some have history, some of it is not readily available or only available to a few that remember things here and there, but I guess that's a personal decision for everyone

be careful who you buy books from, or how they acquired them to begin with (stolen or under false pretenses)

as Sade once sade, "is it a crime"

my last post

have a hot date tonight

Leave my mom the F alone. 

[Bo1983]

On 12/22/2023 at 6:28 PM, Buzzetta said:

Leave my mom the F alone. 

Yo what’s up friend crazy times here!

[Comics]

On 12/22/2023 at 3:21 PM, brute_nm said:

 

The picture backgrounds and Wolverine 1 JSCampbell variant also line up with briva3 sales @agamoto found.  Between that and the language in the description, I think it's pretty definitive.

  

 

Yup. I have looked at about 500 of his previous sales (2014-2020) and it really looks like standard issue stuff. Lots of ASM keys etc. Maybe one or two MJ inserts. So that's good, right?

[Buzzetta]

If you want a possible lead on another book see if there is a GI Joe 21 9.8 that seems odd that might be attached to one of those accounts. 

I am still trying to find it.  I remember that we discussed that the buyer overpaid in one of the Facebook GI Joe groups and that the book had too many spine ticks and looked more like a 9.2-9.4.

[MyNameIsLegion]

On 12/22/2023 at 4:39 PM, VintageComics said:

I don't think you understand what goes into grading a comic book.

Identifying 2 dimensional details like art shapes and brush strokes from the article you linked is one thing.  

Assessing a 3 dimensional object is something entirely different. 

How do you get AI to examine 30 or 60 pages?

How do you get AI to FEEL the pages? Smell the pages?

Assess how the entire book FEELS?

These are all factors in grading a book. It's NOT just a matter of counting spine ticks. 

You'd need to get things like radiology, weigh scales and all sorts of other things in the process. 

Now you need to make it cost effective and efficient because you can't spend 5 mins on a book. 

There's just too much, multi-dimensional, human involvement in grading a book from what I can envision. 

There’s plenty of equipment now that can detect chemical composition (spectrometer) and detect odors (olfactometer) that will be infinitely more precise.  That’s decades old technology that doesn’t catch a cold or have allergies. “Bob’s a little stuffy today, we can’t grade these White Mountains” of course some hourly flunky will be turning pages but AI can do absolutely all of the complex scoring to determine an impartial grade.. Robots build cars and microchips now, do you honestly think examining a comic book is a real challenge? (Insert “ok boomer” meme here- despite the fact that I believe we are the same age)

[Kripsys99]

December 22, 2023

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

CGC is aware of a situation involving a limited number of online auctions featuring suspicious slabbed comic books purportedly encapsulated and graded by CGC, and of the alleged links between these books and CGC's graded comic reholdering service. Please rest assured that CGC takes its position as the world’s leading third-party grading service for comic books seriously, and that we are in the process of gathering additional information regarding this unfortunate situation. In the meantime, additional measures, over and above our usual industry leading safeguards, have been put in place to ensure the integrity of our grading and encapsulation processes.

Note: This statement was drafted by Kripsys99 for consideration of use by CGC management, and in no way reflects the current position of CGC or its subsidiaries.

Another CGC scandal, another week without CGC weighing in! I'm sure we've seen this before :

Once again CGC, feel free to call me for advice on how to handle a crisis. You appear to need the help!

[VintageComics]

On 12/22/2023 at 6:34 PM, MyNameIsLegion said:

There’s plenty of equipment now that can detect chemical composition (spectrometer) and detect odors (olfactometer) that will be infinitely more precise.  That’s decades old technology that doesn’t catch a cold or have allergies. “Bob’s a little stuffy today, we can’t grade these White Mountains” of course some hourly flunky will be turning pages but AI can do absolutely all of the complex scoring to determine an impartial grade.. Robots build cars and microchips now, do you honestly think examining a comic book is a real challenge? (Insert “ok boomer” meme here- despite the fact that I believe we are the same age)

I don't think most average people can think in terms of complex systems. 

Just like examining a 2D painting is different for AI, putting a metal fender in place on an assembly line is different than picking up a comic book, turning the pages and assessing them all.

You might eventually be able to make it happen in the distant future with NASA type tech, but by then all human labor will have been replaced. 

I think the challenge is in the complexity of how fine of a handling touch is needed, complicated by the the diverse methods of analysis AND cost structure to make it viable. These are all going to be obstacles and making them all work together? 

You can do one thing well, but tying all of those things together is space age stuff. 

 

Edited December 23, 2023 by VintageComics