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ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC
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Started by spidermanbeyond,

9,012 posts in this topic

Superman2006

Superman2006

Posted
Posted
On 12/22/2023 at 3:24 PM, namisgr said:
On 12/22/2023 at 3:13 PM, AbsoluteCarnage said:

I'm only on page 67 where you asked this so apologies if someone answered from page 68 to page infinity but when I noticed that the inner wells were a tad loose at times I looked into it and found this thread from 2021. At first I thought it was a malfunction in the slabbing process and I think most did back then but it turned out to be CGC changing the way they did the sealing in order to try and eliminate "Newton Rings" from what I have taken in. I was advised from the highest up that the inner wells aren't meant to be locked in so it's probably a good assumption that it was changed in 2020ish I'm guessing. Maybe earlier. Hope that helps.

 

Expand  

I don't think the matter of loose slabs relates to changing whether or not the label is tethered to the top part of the inner well.

I'll have a take a closer look when I have more time, but if I recall correctly, all slabs with the slightly smaller grade box in the top left corner had labels that were heat sealed to the inner well, so presumably all of those are safe from this particular scam. I'll have to look at the latest grade dates I can find for those slabs.

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comicwiz

comicwiz

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Posted (edited)
On 12/22/2023 at 3:30 PM, Superman2006 said:

Is there any logical reason for the scammer to have submitted a book missing the MVS in order to get a green label Hulk 181? I can't think of one. If the scammer didn't submit the Hulk 181 with green label, then I think the most likely explanation for the same grade dates is that it is just a coincidence. Am I missing something?

what we know for certain are two very important things.

The book inside the Universal Blue CGC 7.5 book is NOT a book that merits being inside that slab. It was previously graded a 7.0 qualified because it's missing an MVS and a panel out of pg 14. We know this because we matched it to a book that was previously graded as a qualfied 7.5. 

It just so happens that both iterations share the same grade date.

The other thing is this is not standard practice for a book that is missing an MVS and a panel out of a book (essentially deemed incomplete) to end up in a universal slab. 

How it happened is something that we are trying to figure out, but I think with this discovery, the explanations are narrowing as to how it's possible.

Edited by comicwiz
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AbsoluteCarnage

AbsoluteCarnage

Posted
Posted
On 12/22/2023 at 3:24 PM, namisgr said:

I don't think the matter of loose slabs relates to changing whether or not the label is tethered to the top part of the inner well.

Perhaps not. I'm not sure how the changes took place 100% or what exactly was melded together in the inner well with regards to the top and bottom of the case. Never cracked a slab to really look. They definitely had some slab changes around that time that may have been when the change transpired I guess. Was my best guess on that timeframe.

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Superman2006

Superman2006

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Posted
On 12/22/2023 at 3:39 PM, comicwiz said:

what we know for certain are two very important things.

The book inside the Universal Blue CGC 7.5 book is NOT a book that merits being inside that slab. It was previously graded a 7.0 qualified because it's missing an MVS and a panel out of pg 14. We know this because we matched it to a book that was previously graded as a qualfied 7.5. 

It just so happens that both iterations share the same grade date.

The other thing is this is not standard practice for a book that is missing an MVS and a panel out of a book (essentially deemed incomplete) to end up in a universal slab. 

How it happened is something that we are trying to figure out, but I think with this discovery, the explanations are narrowing as to how it's possible.

Thanks - I agree with all of that, but I would just add that I think it is highly unlikely the scammer submitted the green label Hulk 181 himself (although anything is possible).

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VintageComics

VintageComics

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On 12/22/2023 at 1:17 AM, Iconic1s said:

Pretty much every reholder submission the guy ever did is probably a lower grade book that had the inner well cracked out/swapped.  

What I am having trouble understanding is how someone gets SO MANY REHOLDERS without anyone raising an eyebrow internally. ???

I mean, I reholder books. Everyone does, but it's usually like 1 in 100 or or 1 in 1000 or something similar due to a cracked slab or whatever, but not almost every book. 

Either:

1) They're either a very high volume submitter and not every book is a reholder, so he just 'salts' them into submissions once in a while or

2) They've found a way to reseal the slabs and reholder them for another reason other than slab damage (like a scratch on the slab or newton rings) so that the book doesn't get inspected at all. 

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sledgehammer

sledgehammer

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On 12/22/2023 at 2:43 PM, jeffreyk said:
On 12/22/2023 at 1:47 PM, sledgehammer said:

Someone already suggested an inner well that has the label sealed inside of it, yesterday. they need to figure this out.

Didn't the 2nd generation case have the label sealed at the top of the inner well?

The thought was a different depth slab, where the label could be inside of the sealed inner well.

Longer term fix.

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Book Guy

Book Guy

Posted
Posted
On 12/22/2023 at 8:19 AM, jsilverjanet said:

4) did we order enough crack for @greggy at the x-mas party

A naked Mike isn't enough crack for @greggy? My God! What an animal!

I know neither Mike nor @greggy, but this opportunity to issue my own wise crack was just shooting fish in a barrel! I had to take the shot!

BTW jsilverjanet I've always enjoyed yr comments as well as your profile pic!

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sledgehammer

sledgehammer

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On 12/22/2023 at 2:44 PM, VintageComics said:

What I am having trouble understanding is how someone gets SO MANY REHOLDERS without anyone raising an eyebrow internally. ???

I mean, I reholder books. Everyone does, but it's usually like 1 in 100 or or 1 in 1000 or something similar due to a cracked slab or whatever, but not almost every book. 

Again, 70% of his 30 sold ebay listings were custom labels.

Maybe the other part of the submissions went to a different ebay user ID

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Axelrod

Axelrod

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Posted
On 12/22/2023 at 3:30 PM, comicwiz said:

as he won that auction, and ended-up with the green label IH 181.

So, are you saying it is the scammer who bought the Qualified book in that sale you posted?  You can tell that?

Because that tracks with him buying and then slipping it into a Blue holder.  Assuming that the "graded date" does not change when a book is submitted for a reholder as some people are saying.  

The coincidence would be that the blue label holder he slipped it into was also graded on the same day.  Which would be quite a coincidence.  

 

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comicwiz

comicwiz

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Posted (edited)
On 12/22/2023 at 3:42 PM, Superman2006 said:

Thanks - I agree with all of that, but I would just add that I think it is highly unlikely the scammer submitted the green label Hulk 181 himself (although anything is possible).

That's the part that is complicating things, because I think in order for us to understand the scale of the deception and fraud being committed here, we have to stop thinking of this as a "submission." Once we do that, we can start to understand how things like two books, conjoiined only due to them being swapped, and one book ending-up in a slab that misrepresents it's state, could have the same grade dates.

Edited by comicwiz
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electricprune

electricprune

Posted
Posted
On 12/22/2023 at 2:44 PM, comicwiz said:

But doesn't this condition require the s/n to remain the same?

This is just a guess, and I apologize if anyone has already mentioned this. Is it possible that the new slab that had a special label can’t be attached to an old number? Maybe labels and certs done before the specialized artwork labels started can’t carry the old cert number into a new reholdered slab? My best guess.

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AbsoluteCarnage

AbsoluteCarnage

Posted
Posted
On 12/22/2023 at 3:44 PM, VintageComics said:

What I am having trouble understanding is how someone gets SO MANY REHOLDERS without anyone raising an eyebrow internally. ???

I mean, I reholder books. Everyone does, but it's usually like 1 in 100 or or 1 in 1000 or something similar due to a cracked slab or whatever, but not almost every book. 

Either:

1) They're either a very high volume submitter and not every book is a reholder, so he just 'salts' them into submissions once in a while or

2) They've found a way to reseal the slabs and reholder them for another reason other than slab damage (like a scratch on the slab or newton rings) so that the book doesn't get inspected at all. 

custom labels ;-)

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Iconic1s

Iconic1s

Posted
Posted
On 12/22/2023 at 2:47 PM, Axelrod said:

The coincidence would be that the blue label holder he slipped it into was also graded on the same day.  Which would be quite a coincidence.  

This is what I was thinking.  A coincidence is all.

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Superman2006

Superman2006

Posted
Posted
On 12/22/2023 at 3:47 PM, Axelrod said:
On 12/22/2023 at 3:30 PM, comicwiz said:

as he won that auction, and ended-up with the green label IH 181.

So, are you saying it is the scammer who bought the Qualified book in that sale you posted?  You can tell that?

Because that tracks with him buying and then slipping it into a Blue holder.  Assuming that the "graded date" does not change when a book is submitted for a reholder as some people are saying.  

The coincidence would be that the blue label holder he slipped it into was also graded on the same day.  Which would be quite a coincidence.  

I get the feeling the scammer isn't a "buy and hold" type of guy, and so if he bought the green and blue label in a short period of time with the intent to switch labels, then the odds aren't outrageous that the blue and green label books could have had the same grade date. I'll stop restating that now; just wanted to add that the odds of a same grade date aren't that high in that scenario.

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brute_nm

brute_nm

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Posted (edited)

As we approach 75 pages, I'm worried that the details of the seller and the scam will get lost in all the side conversations and bickering.  Here's my attempt at summarizing what we know right now.

I know this is a rapidly-evolving situation, and stuff will likely change in coming days/weeks, but hopefully this helps distill the thread down to a digestible level.

Fraud originally discovered and reported by Dave (@WestcoastDAVEngers, IG @west_coast_davengers) and Manu (IG @the9.9newsstand).

Rough timeline of events

Scammer's known eBay aliases and approx timelines selling on eBay:

  • corner142 (29-Jan-2011 to 2-Mar-2014)
  • elysium142
  • zaneglor (6-Jul-2014 to 28-Aug-2022)
  • aureliaag
  • briva3 (25-Sep-2022 to 19-Dec-2023)
  • Comic Selects
  • azwildcatz520 (2018) UNCONFIRMED

reholder_scam_summary.thumb.png.ed1febfbda8ae2f4c12ebabbe935c887.png

reholder_scam_how_it_works.thumb.png.53a2f01ef8713cc071334ffc079fc88f.png

Proof pictures of Hulk 181's.  All these green label "donor books" became blue labels:

Other confirmed fraudulent books:

 

Thanks to @comicwiz, @agamoto, @THE_BEYONDER, @WestcoastDAVEngers, @sledgehammer, @Christophe9999, @Comics, @mephistopheles, @Timmay, @AbsoluteCarnage, @bsmith, @Mdesimone, and others for mining data with WorthPoint, Terapeak, GoCollect, and CGC census.

Edited by brute_nm
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