ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[DougC]

On 12/26/2023 at 1:20 AM, Book Guy said:

We are familiar with the MO of switching out lesser copies and have having them reholdered. Not quite on topic but what is to prevent someone from forging whole mint comics and sending them in to CGC or use your Chinese acquired holders, wells, sonic welders and maybe forged facsimiles of legitimate CGC labels and selling the whole enchilada? I know there are holograms on more modern labels but older ones wouldn't have them. Remember those single copies of Gold and Silver keys that someone was selling on eBay earlier this year. They looked pretty good in the photos. If organized crime was involved in any large way, this seems the channel they would use.

I think the only thing holding this back is the community tracking of big money key books. If you spend the money to set-up the operation and forge the wrong book with a known owner you've just killed everything and now buyers/auction houses are on high alert. Even if you set your sights lowers on H#181's you might get away with a couple spoofed serial #'s but by the fifth one you'll likely be found out again and you've just blown your investment with no return and again set off alarms.

This is why even though some of the alibaba gold bars will pass a scratch test due to thicker coating the spoofed serial number always give it away as fake. This is also been tried with baseball cards and fake PSA labels with the results above happening after a couple get through.

[Iconic1s]

On 12/26/2023 at 1:24 AM, Steven Valdez said:

That indicates shill bidding gone wrong -- where the shill pushes the price up beyond what the next highest bidder was willing to pay. Of course, the shill is only there to jack the price up on behalf of the seller (or he IS the seller), so is not going to pay if he "wins".

Seems like it’s all of the above:

1) he compromises the slab somehow to be able to swap inner well with lower grade books.

2) then, used the reholder process to get a a pristine new slab (with possible updated label info such as the MJI annotation, and/or custom label). This also ensures that image is updated on CGC site.

3) then uses shill bidding to make sure he gets top dollar for all of his “effort.”

4) only gets caught because he did this with such a niche, and ultra rare high grade book.

#2 bothers me the most, and all things considered (such as really weird grade date differences, and such sustained success) it is seeming more likely there was inside help.  If that’s the case (no pun intended) CGC oughta figure out who pretty quickly when they look at who handled this guy’s submissions (if they decide to look).

I honestly don’t think anything comes of this (and I’ve read all 129 pages). Seems like this is A LOT of data (making subjective judgments on spine ticks, etc) to gather and present to “authorities”, and then “they” need to care enough to work the case.  While all of this “different book in a different holder” stuff is obvious to us, it probably won’t be all that convincing to these authorities, especially when CGC (the world’s leading authority) is standing there saying that this is not possible.  I’m guessing that individual victims of this fraud will have to push their individual cases to be made whole, if they think the juice is worth the squeeze on that.

Other than that, I’m more and more thinking “the World” couldn’t care less about some dude selling lower grade books in higher grade holders.

CGC may (but probably won’t) see a momentary decrease in subs, and the few hundred people that know what has happened will look at this demographic of slabbed book closer before buying, but other than that, I predict nothing publicly known comes of any of this.

[Prince Namor]

This dude is probably reading this thread... I wonder what's going on inside his head right now...

[Steven Valdez]

On 12/26/2023 at 7:16 PM, Prince Namor said:

This dude is probably reading this thread... I wonder what's going on inside his head right now...

Probably something like, 'They laughed at me, called me names. But I'll show them. I'll show them ALL!'

[agamoto]

On 12/25/2023 at 10:42 PM, Steven Valdez said:

Just wondering... I have an X-Men #312 which contains an 8-page Marvel Mart insert. Do people collect mundane ephemera like that, or it it only the Mark Jewelers and Toonz insert that are highly desirable?

If the marvel mart insert only appeared in less than 5% of the entire print run then yeah, eventually the variant book freaks and geeks will add it to their list of must collects. 

[Steven Valdez]

On 12/26/2023 at 8:00 PM, agamoto said:

If the marvel mart insert only appeared in less than 5% of the entire print run then yeah, eventually the variant book freaks and geeks will add it to their list of must collects. 

I've always said 'Collect the book, not the junk mail insert'.

[Happy Noodle Boy]

On 12/26/2023 at 3:08 AM, Iconic1s said:

CGC may (but probably won’t) see a momentary decrease in subs, and the few hundred people that know what has happened will look at this demographic of slabbed book closer before buying, but other than that, I predict nothing publicly known comes of any of this.

There's enough money involved here that I can see some people filing lawsuits against CGC if they refuse to take any sort of action. People have apparently been scammed out of thousands of dollars.

[comicwiz]

On 12/26/2023 at 2:42 AM, DougC said:

Even if you set your sights lowers on H#181's you might get away with a couple spoofed serial #'s but by the fifth one you'll likely be found out again and you've just blown your investment with no return and again set off alarms.

Just to give a little context to why I'm focusing on IH 181's. At the moment, I've got to go through a tonne of listings, using a very predefiined pattern because it's produced the most accelerated results. That is, searching for certain patterns in the origin data set of this seller. Then determining potential bump possibilities, and of course the monetary reward, time period possibilities. I'm working with things such as alignment, wrap, and distinguishing characteristics I can scan from a thumbnail, and if I see even a slight hint of a confluence of these, I dig deep. The ratio is looking like having to go through anywhere from 50-75 listings to sometimes figure out the possibility he may have sourced the book elsewhere or raw. I haven't even touched any of the other key books yet. I will, there is a rythmic process of gridding and triangulating in the above techniques which is helping to accelerate an otherwise time intensive and labourious process. I'm explaining this to give the boardies that insight, to say I agree with your overall assessment, and also because this is why CGC would rather have us do the grunt work for them. 

Now let's get on with the next match...

Edited December 26, 2023 by comicwiz

[comicwiz]

Yet another Hulk 181 Green to Blue, this time it's a Qualified 6.0 that became a Universal 6.5. 

Beginning first with the certifications screenshots, post with sold dates for each to follow this one:

4155507003 - CGC Qualifed 6.0 - Hulk 181

Became

↳ 4120217003 - CGC Universal 6.5 - Hulk 181

[comicwiz]

Most noticeable characteristics to ascertain exact match, same wrap, same spine ticks, particularly by Wolvie's forearm, there is a diagonal crease that travels from the spine in a diagonally downward direction by the fist area, vertifical colour break running just above the D in Incredible to the MCG banner, crimped top right corner with diagonal colour break. Red pen mark (resembling a cursive handwritten m) on back cover.

4155507003 - CGC Qualified 6.0 - Hulk 1818 - Sold Feb 13, 2023 - $2750 (GD: 11/16/2022)

 

4120217003 - CGC Universal 6.5 - Hulk 181 - Sold Apr 11, 2023 - $4216 (GD: 09/06/2022)

Edited December 26, 2023 by comicwiz

[sledgehammer]

Fantastic Job!!!!!!!!!

[Genuine Article Comics]

On 12/25/2023 at 3:08 PM, Genuine Article Comics said:

CGC has to come up with a way to keep the inner well and label attached to one another.  If CGC heat seal/sonic weld the label and inner well together then this scam never happens. CBCS used to sonic weld their label to their inner well. With CBCS's cases being the best on the market for protection, clarity and security they don't need to do that anymore but CGC should absolutely adopt that solution. 

What are the chances CGC changes their label/inner well construction vs. their reholder process?  It might be easier to just change the construction. Probably higher upfront costs but no impact to TATs etc.

[namisgr]

On 12/26/2023 at 8:34 AM, comicwiz said:

Yet another Hulk 181 Green to Blue, this time it's a Qualified 6.0 that became a Universal 6.5. 

Beginning first with the certifications screenshots, post with sold dates for each to follow this one:

4155507003 - CGC Qualifed 6.0 - Hulk 181

Became

↳ 4120217003 - CGC Universal 6.5 - Hulk 181

I'm slow on this issue, so please can you explain again how a green labelled copy became a blue labelled one despite being recorded by CGC as having been graded after the blue label copy?

[sledgehammer]

The green label went in to the blue holder, and was sent for a reholder.  I think.

 

(inner well)

Edited December 26, 2023 by sledgehammer

[comicwiz]

On 12/26/2023 at 8:42 AM, sledgehammer said:

Fantastic Job!!!!!!!!!

 

On 12/26/2023 at 8:49 AM, namisgr said:

I'm slow on this issue, so please can you explain again how a green labelled copy became a blue labelled one despite being recorded by CGC as having been graded after the blue label copy?

Very likely during reholder, custom label, kept the original grade date. But I'm not 100% on this because there's something about this that screams backstage access. Even in the latter case, the intent would be to mimic that process to ward off suspicion. I've got a mountain of data to run through, but this is how I'm trying to untangle some of that confusion. Haven't really properly sat down to think this through yet, leaving that to the great work the boardies have been providing.

On this point, I'd love if someone could create even a log at the moment of points in this thread where I've shown the green to blue for IH 181, and get a permalink for each of those (4 at the moment). I have a feeling there's going to be quite a few more to come, and I'd like to consolidate them all, perhaps either in a comment or another post showing these exact examples to help people navigate them better, and wade through these 130+ pages. Thanks!

Edited December 26, 2023 by comicwiz

[DougC]

On 12/26/2023 at 7:54 AM, comicwiz said:

 

Words....

Do you have your findings set-up in an excel file (or google doc)?

You have found an unsettling amount of these and it might be easier to start keeping a file the community could access (locked). I would be willing to assist with this if you need a hand.

[Steven Valdez]

On 12/27/2023 at 12:40 AM, comicwiz said:

The book looks like it's incurred bonus water damage at the bottom, in the transition from green to blue label.

[MAR1979]

Prediction for Today Dec 26, 2023:

NO Statement from CGC! No Actions by CGC Today!

Prediction for Remainder of week, Dec 27,28 and 29 2023:

NO Statement from CGC! No Actions by CGC!

 

CGC will continue to be sent and receive submissions unabated and those Benji's will keeps rollin' in. So why would they ever say anything...

Thus far all my predication's in this matter have been 100% correct

Edited December 26, 2023 by MAR1979

[sledgehammer]

On 12/26/2023 at 8:04 AM, Steven Valdez said:

The book looks like it's incurred bonus water damage at the bottom, in the transition from green to blue label.

Bad press?

[Steven Valdez]

On 12/27/2023 at 1:06 AM, sledgehammer said:

Bad press?

Yup, that's what I'm thinking. In fact the entire back page looks to be moisture affected on closer inspection. So it's actually in worse condition after the "upgrade" and switcheroo...??

Edited December 26, 2023 by Steven Valdez