Isn't "Color Touch Removal" Just Destroying the Book? 1 1

[Dr. Balls]

On 1/10/2024 at 9:42 PM, KCOComics said:

I've never even considered upgrading because the colors just jump off the page. It would be hard to find a prettier copy without paying an fortune. 

When it comes to GA - I'll gladly take a PLOD CT at a discount compared to it's Blue counterpart. For the past - what - 20 years, PLODs have gotten a bad rap, but I think in the next 10, the GA market is going to soften it's stance on the PLODs when they look as nice as they do, especially when it's light color touch or other minor issues. At some point, the scarcity of the book is going to trump the issues it has, and people will be more apt to accept the book over the label.

Someone took a marker to the spine, but the rest of the book is a 5.5? Yes, please!

[fifties]

On 1/10/2024 at 8:42 PM, KCOComics said:

Well.. if cgc identified CT, you should disclose it. 

 

CGC is not infallible, as you can see by looking at some of the other posts here, ESP Marty Mann's. 

I wouldn't offer the CGC opinion unless I saw proof of it.  If I did, I would include a scan of their label.

[sfcityduck]

On 1/11/2024 at 1:12 PM, fifties said:

CGC is not infallible, as you can see by looking at some of the other posts here, ESP Marty Mann's. 

I wouldn't offer the CGC opinion unless I saw proof of it.  If I did, I would include a scan of their label.

CGC isn't perfect in a lot of ways. So, yes, I agree they make mistakes. But if you are selling a book that CGC said had color touch, and you know that because you deslabbed it, why not just tell buyers the facts:  CGC identified the book as having CT but you haven't found any, so you think CGC made one of their mistakes (its well known they aren't perfect). That way the buyer can take a look for CT instead of being in the position of having to trust your opinion - which could be wrong.

[fifties]

On 1/11/2024 at 5:47 PM, sfcityduck said:

CGC isn't perfect in a lot of ways. So, yes, I agree they make mistakes. But if you are selling a book that CGC said had color touch, and you know that because you deslabbed it, why not just tell buyers the facts:  CGC identified the book as having CT but you haven't found any, so you think CGC made one of their mistakes (its well known they aren't perfect). That way the buyer can take a look for CT instead of being in the position of having to trust your opinion - which could be wrong.

Thx and your suggestion is noted, but it's really a moot point, since when I buy a slabbed book, I generally will keep it.

[adamstrange]

On 1/10/2024 at 5:00 PM, Bumble Kitty said:

It is not necessarily a bad thing.  A while back, I bought a Golden Age romance book that was graded 9.2, with slight color touch.  I got it real cheap.  Obviously, the seller just wanted to get rid of this monstrosity.  I could not spot the color touch through the slab, so I sent it in for color touch removal and re-grading.  It came back 9.0.  A real nice looking book!  I can't see where the color touch was "scrapped" off.  

This book will stay in my collection for a very long time

This is the real crime!

[adamstrange]

On 1/11/2024 at 11:46 AM, Artboy99 said:

n estimate is 20% of the surface of the front cover was touched. 

That's not a color touch, that's a chromatic assault!

Edited January 12 by adamstrange

[D84]

On 1/10/2024 at 11:45 AM, szav said:

In my mind there is no difference between scraping off part of the book and trimming it.  You are physically removing part of the book to improve, in the minds of some, the grade, desirability, or perceived value of the book.  CT removal is itself restoration, it's absurd.

I say this every time the topic comes up, but it's really the worst of all practices that CGC not only allows, but incentivizes.  It's a really bad policy.   A happy medium that CGC could adopt and still rake in more money would be to announce that books that are currently in purple holders for color touch alone could be regraded and given a blue label grade, if the owner so desires, that is the effective 'blue label grade if we were to scrape off the CT affected areas' without actually doing the harm to the book.  Think of how many resubs they'd get and all the $$$.

Send in your purple 7.0 small amount of CT book, and get back a 5.5 blue label, or whatever it should be. that lists the CT in the graders notes and treats it more or less like a stain from a grading perspective.  Win win.

[Dick Pontoon]

On 1/11/2024 at 4:12 PM, fifties said:

On 1/10/2024 at 11:42 PM, KCOComics said:

Well.. if cgc identified CT, you should disclose it. 

 

CGC is not infallible, as you can see by looking at some of the other posts here, ESP Marty Mann's. 

I wouldn't offer the CGC opinion unless I saw proof of it.  If I did, I would include a scan of their label.

CGC is not infallible. But selling a de-slabbed purple label book without disclosure is at best unethical if not outright dishonest. I would preemptively not buy anything, especially raw books, from a seller like that.

Edited January 12 by Dick Pontoon

[Phill the Governor]

On 1/12/2024 at 7:34 AM, Pontoon said:

CGC is not infallible. But selling a de-slabbed purple label book without disclosure is as best unethical if not outright dishonest. I would preemptively not buy anything, especially raw books, from a seller like that.

I think the person made a mistake in assuming they are better at IDing color touch than they actually are. Many people think the same way. It's not out of dishonesty, more like ignorance.

I think the argument that ct removal is as bad as trimming is also ignorant. Trimming was done to deceive. Color touch was done to deceive. And color touch removal is done to remove something that is deceiving so the true condition of the book can be seen. That part isn't complicated, to me at least. The complicated part is when it's safe to remove and when it's better to leave it alone.

[shadroch]

On 1/10/2024 at 9:12 PM, fifties said:

I'm not at all surprised.  I've bought numerous purple label slabbed "slight color touch" graded books, and I always de-slab them.  I have yet to find the alleged color touch, but more power to them.  It makes the books more affordable to me.  And IF I were to sell it raw, with no mention of CT (not a lie, as I can't see any), could get perhaps a better price than what I paid.

Do you have an eBay id that I can avoid?  

[Dick Pontoon]

On 1/12/2024 at 8:11 AM, Phill the Governor said:

I think the person made a mistake in assuming they are better at IDing color touch than they actually are. Many people think the same way. It's not out of dishonesty, more like ignorance.

I think the argument that ct removal is as bad as trimming is also ignorant. Trimming was done to deceive. Color touch was done to deceive. And color touch removal is done to remove something that is deceiving so the true condition of the book can be seen. That part isn't complicated, to me at least. The complicated part is when it's safe to remove and when it's better to leave it alone.

Whether it's dishonesty or ignorance is a moot point. If the following represents a seller's methodology, I'm staying far away:

On 1/10/2024 at 11:12 PM, fifties said:

I'm not at all surprised.  I've bought numerous purple label slabbed "slight color touch" graded books, and I always de-slab them.  I have yet to find the alleged color touch, but more power to them.  It makes the books more affordable to me.  And IF I were to sell it raw, with no mention of CT (not a lie, as I can't see any), could get perhaps a better price than what I paid.

[ThothAmon]

On 1/10/2024 at 11:12 PM, fifties said:

And IF I were to sell it raw, with no mention of CT (not a lie, as I can't see any), could get perhaps a better price than what I paid.

I’d rethink this. Common law fraud occurs when someone makes a material misrepresentation with the intention of inducing reliance and causing financial damages.  Hmmm. 🤔 I’d think that unless you disclose that CGC, recognized experts in identifying restoration, has found color touch you’d be committing said fraud.   Especially with your affirmative action of removing the “warning” (PLOD) to prospective purchasers. I’m sure all states have similar laws to NYs. 

 

[Professor K]

Lawyer- :Isn't it true that you were aware that the comic had color touch but did not disclose this to the buyer?".

Defendant- "No".

Judge- "Case dismissed".

[shadroch]

On 1/12/2024 at 9:26 AM, Professor K said:

Lawyer- :Isn't it true that you were aware that the comic had color touch but did not disclose this to the buyer?".

Defendant- "No".

Judge- "Case dismissed".

A photo of the book in a PLOD is produced, and your client looks like the scumbag he is.  He's also paid far more for the lawyer than he sold the book for. 

Sometimes, people type things without thinking them through.  Hopefully, this is one, and the person hasn't sold any books under those conditions. 

Edited January 12 by shadroch

[Dr. Love]

another of the infamous board Rorschach tests

[Phill the Governor]

On 1/12/2024 at 11:59 AM, szav said:

That’s a strange argument.  I think deception about previous deception still = deception.

CT removal that removes paper does not bring the book to its original or natural state, or show it’s true condition.  It simply alters it in a different way.

CT scraping is just  a thin trimming horizontal to the plane of the paper vs a vertical cut.

Sounds like a slippery slope of confusion if you're going to attribute the word deception to color touch removal, considering it's inherently the exact opposite.

What's your experience with seeing books in hand that have been removed from a slab, and removing color touch and/or other restoration/conservation?

[Yorick]

On 1/12/2024 at 11:02 AM, szav said:

Is it possible to remove CT without physically removing or chemically altering the underlying paper?

I believe it can be.  I'm not at a level of expertise to give you specific examples, but I have a couple books that have some heavy paint that may be able to be lifted.  There very well could be an oil stain left in it's wake...

There is too much nuance here.  The example on the first page is terrible in my eyes.  I would not buy it.  If it was given to me, I might have a pro put the color touch back.

[fifties]

On 1/12/2024 at 6:32 AM, ThothAmon said:

I’d rethink this. Common law fraud occurs when someone makes a material misrepresentation with the intention of inducing reliance and causing financial damages.  Hmmm. 🤔 I’d think that unless you disclose that CGC, recognized experts in identifying restoration, has found color touch you’d be committing said fraud.   Especially with your affirmative action of removing the “warning” (PLOD) to prospective purchasers. I’m sure all states have similar laws to NYs. 

 

Wow, looks like I disturbed a real Hornets nest.  I wasn't aware of the passion about this, and will admit that you folks have taught me something.

  I looked at it as, who am I going to believe about CT, CGC or my lying eyes, and didn't consider their validity.  I've been on The Bay since 1998 and have sold hundreds of comics, with not one single return or less than positive F/B hit.  I use the same nic as I do here.

  I've never sold a professionally graded book, but if I should, I have no intention of defrauding anyone.  I keep CGC labels, and would include it in any auction or sales thread scans.

[Phill the Governor]

On 1/12/2024 at 2:02 PM, szav said:

Do tell.  Is it possible to remove CT without physically removing or chemically altering the underlying paper?  You might convince me if it’s somehow possible.  I’m pretty sure paper was removed from the pictured Wonder Woman comic earlier in the thread.  But do explain if we’re somehow ignorant about what’s happened with these books.

If any substance of the paper is removed then I’ll maintain my assertion that the book is effectively getting trimmed. 

You did some side skirting, but for the sake of the conversation lets say that the answer to your question is no.

But I'll ask again, what's your experience with seeing books in hand that have been removed from a slab and removing color touch and/or other restoration/conservation?

I don't want to make the assumption that you don't actually have experience, except pointing to obvious already graded books that have had ct removed, but trying to give you the benefit of the doubt.

 

[shadroch]

No.

Giving hypothetical grades doesn't make much sense.