When can we expect a totally redesigned holder from CGC? 6 6

[drotto]

Still think one of the best solutions requires no redesign, just and extra step in the holdering process.  Print or etch all the book's information on the inner sleave, and incorporate some fashion of watermarking or UV light printing onto the inner well plastic. So all inner wells would have the book name, issue number, grade, issue notation (like no MVS, MJI, restoration info like C1, etc), and certificate number on that well.

 

The outer well is therefor needed for physical protection only, and the inner well protects again fraud. 

[comicjel]

Few ideas that come to mind...

I think CGC could keep the current holder for lower value and cheaper modern tiers with just changes to the reholder procedures and create a more robust holder designed for higher value tiers - to keep the lower tiers economical.

A "high" resolution mini photo of the graded comic could be added to the label.

Have the inner well have two sealed pockets - one for the comic and one for the label, where the label is sealed on all 4 sides like the comic (I realize that doing so will remove the top flap of the label that currently shows the name when looking from the top, so would need to add a work around for that).

I miss the days of buying comics with my paper route $$ and not being concerned about things like this!!

 

[Kevin76]

If I was the submitter, I'd get myself a good lawyer, he should be able to get a good one with all the money he's made from scamming people, however a jury would have to prove without a shadow of a doubt, he was tied directly and responsible to the reholder fraud  

[Yorick]

On 1/10/2024 at 11:33 AM, Math Teacher said:

I agree with @namisgr. If I have books in my collection that I have owned for years, I have no qualms about sending in my books to be graded. Personally, I have never sent in a book to be reholdered.

 

But have you bought a graded book?  And if so, did you remove it from the case and inner well to verify that it's all there?

Knowing what to look for is very important, but I'm in the camp of believing that the outside case corners can be opened and closed without looking broken.  A "redesign" may be as simple as printing the label a little longer so that it becomes sealed in rather than floating at the top.  So many good ideas have been presented already that do not require redesign.

[Math Teacher]

On 1/11/2024 at 3:24 AM, Yorick said:

But have you bought a graded book?  And if so, did you remove it from the case and inner well to verify that it's all there?

Knowing what to look for is very important, but I'm in the camp of believing that the outside case corners can be opened and closed without looking broken.  A "redesign" may be as simple as printing the label a little longer so that it becomes sealed in rather than floating at the top.  So many good ideas have been presented already that do not require redesign.

Yes, I have purchased many graded books. But why would I remove it from the case and inner well? I have virtually no mechanical skills whatsoever, so I don't think I could open a case without damaging the book, and I certainly don't think I could put the book back into the case, thus defeating the whole purpose of getting it slabbed.

Also, the type of book I purchase is not the type of book that people would scam. The only CGC 9.8s I have are ROM #1 and Wolverine #1 Christopher Variant cover. You would be an insufficiently_thoughtful_person if you tried to scam ROM #1, as it is worth less than $200. I purchased the Wolverine #1 at C2E2, and I handed directly to CGC for grading. My last purchase was a JLA #5 CGC 5.5; if someone is trying to scam people using books of this type, they must not plan on making a lot of money.

I just checked. The main books that were thought to be scams were ASM #194, ASM #238, ASM #252, ASM #300, IH #181, IH #340, MSHSW #8, and NM #98. My ASM #194, #238, and #252 are raw, ASM #300 came from my personal collection, and I don't own any of the other four books. I like my chances of not having any books that are scams.

[Yorick]

On 1/11/2024 at 2:38 AM, Math Teacher said:

the type of book I purchase is not the type of book that people would scam

An important point, but you can understand how the situation reflects on any of the latest iteration of slabs.

Before the situation was known, I sent a nice ASM298 to be graded.  My intent was to sell it.  Uncertainty for a buyer results in a lower value for me.

I made a trade several years ago which included an IH181 in a blue label case.  What do I do if the other party cracks it out and finds the stamp missing?  I have no idea if the book is complete or not.  It was always in the slab during my custody.

[Closet Avenger]

On 1/11/2024 at 12:24 AM, Yorick said:

But have you bought a graded book?  And if so, did you remove it from the case and inner well to verify that it's all there?

Knowing what to look for is very important, but I'm in the camp of believing that the outside case corners can be opened and closed without looking broken.  A "redesign" may be as simple as printing the label a little longer so that it becomes sealed in rather than floating at the top.  So many good ideas have been presented already that do not require redesign.

That is actually an elegant solution. An oversized label that gets sealed rather than free floating. So its top and left right edges get sealed. Another Idea could utilize double adhesive holographic sticker similar to the current one, inside the case on that label, which peels when the slab is opened. If that sticker isn't intact that slab has been opened.

[Yorick]

On 1/11/2024 at 1:35 PM, Closet Avenger said:

That is actually an elegant solution. An oversized label that gets sealed rather than free floating. So its top and left right edges get sealed. Another Idea could utilize double adhesive holographic sticker similar to the current one, inside the case on that label, which peels when the slab is opened. If that sticker isn't intact that slab has been opened.

I was thinking also of the optics of the label, and how pressure in the wrong spots will create warping.  We want a nice clean looking label.

CGC needs something that's not a complete redesign.  Something effective and easy.

I like many of @drottos ideas, but I imagine the costs are prohibitive.

I forget whos idea it was in the ASM 252 thread, but there was an idea of numbering the inner holders.  That led me to think of a cheaper solution of simply changing the heat seal edge pattern every six months (the inner well has that sonic heat seal "waffle" pattern surrounding the book - which is ugly as it is now).  It would be much harder for a scammer to find two copies of the same book, graded within the same six month period, with the same heat seal pattern on the inner well, to swap the holders.

[shadroch]

 Could the label be sealed, and exposure to air or heat cause it to change color permanently?

[MAR1979]

When can we expect a totally redesigned holder from CGC?

My guess is a minimum of 1 day after never. Where never = as long as Blackstone is the parent company

Edited January 12 by MAR1979

[drotto]

On 1/12/2024 at 1:09 PM, Yorick said:

I was thinking also of the optics of the label, and how pressure in the wrong spots will create warping.  We want a nice clean looking label.

CGC needs something that's not a complete redesign.  Something effective and easy.

I like many of @drottos ideas, but I imagine the costs are prohibitive.

I forget whos idea it was in the ASM 252 thread, but there was an idea of numbering the inner holders.  That led me to think of a cheaper solution of simply changing the heat seal edge pattern every six months (the inner well has that sonic heat seal "waffle" pattern surrounding the book - which is ugly as it is now).  It would be much harder for a scammer to find two copies of the same book, graded within the same six month period, with the same heat seal pattern on the inner well, to swap the holders.

I do no think so.  Every piece of food has an expiration date stamped on the package, and chips still cost like $2.  So I do not see how printing something on the inner well would be that expensive.  Yes the initial machine purchase is going to be expensive, but it is a one time thing. Second,  they already have a hologram sticker on the hard case, or even think of all the interesting packaging we have on all types of products.  I am sure they can afford to do something like this.  

[ADAMANTIUM]

How would it affect the optics to have it printed or I wonder where they'd apply it?

Seems like a small price to pay though. I haven't cracked out a lot of slabs, but is the area of the inner well around the comic large enough to be imprinted without obscuring the comic?

[bc]

Think the idea of printing any code on the inner well in-line to the manufacturing process is going to create cost, processing and QC issues.

 

Talked about this option before...here's a more verbose thought:

Step 1: Grab a bag of microchips and a few readers. Microchips are extremely tiny, heat resistant and durable. They come from the factory with a hardware-based unique serial number.

Step 2: Create a new field in the Certification database. Call it something like "MChip_ID". Make it a hidden (internal only) field. Make it a required field (once tested, validated and documented).

Step 3: Install a reader at the inner well sealing "station". It's basically like a bar code reader and easy to interface into an existing assembly line.

Step 4: When the top of the inner well is ready to be sealed, place a microchip right in the center of the top sealing weld. Basically, laminate it into the top of the inner well.

Step 5: Scan the now sealed book's microchip into the new database field "MChip_ID" and pass it to the outer shell station. The Certification database now has a record of source that links that microchip ID to the legacy Certification fields.

 

Any time a book comes in for a reholder or ME, the microchip ID is scanned to confirm it is valid and matches the Certification database record and pictures. No microchip, no reholder/ME - must be regraded. If the inner holder is compromised in any way - must be regraded.

Scammers can't switch the outer holder or labels as the microchip ID in the inner well travels with the "original" book.

-bc

Edited January 12 by bc
added stuff, typos

[jcjames]

On 1/10/2024 at 4:26 AM, Bronty said:

Unfortunately I don’t think a complete overhaul of a holder is a fast process.   You need to develop thr design , test the prototypes,  get molds made, order large batches - I don’t think it will be quick because there are a number of steps 

Very thin metallic/Mylar tape over all four seams. Like the tamper-proof seals on many electronics.  

At least until a redesign is completed. 

[jcjames]

On 1/12/2024 at 11:29 AM, shadroch said:

 Could the label be sealed, and exposure to air or heat cause it to change color permanently?

Yep. Like the moisture-sensitive indicators inside cellphones.

I still think a tamper-proof metallic seal/tape with heat-sensitive indicator on all four seams. 

[THE_BEYONDER]

Wouldn’t simply sealing the label within the inner well have prevented this switcheroo fiasco?

[Buzzetta]

On 1/13/2024 at 4:04 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

Wouldn’t simply sealing the label within the inner well have prevented this switcheroo fiasco?

Or making it a super sticker adhered to the inner well like the comiclink advertisement stickers on the back of slabs.  If those were tampered with it is noticeable. 

[comicjel]

On 1/13/2024 at 4:10 PM, Buzzetta said:

Or making it a super sticker adhered to the inner well like the comiclink advertisement stickers on the back of slabs.  If those were tampered with it is noticeable. 

If there is ever a true Armageddon, the only things left will be twinkies and Comiclink stickers!! 

[HighGrade]

On 1/13/2024 at 4:04 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

Wouldn’t simply sealing the label within the inner well have prevented this switcheroo fiasco?

Exactly, but they are separated sections now so extending the label doesn't work BUT Perhaps the inner well can just be secured to the outer case inside at the very top right below the label? I think that's stronger than adding a sticker or hologram to the side, I hate the idea of stickers, way too insecure, plus I have too many first gen cases where the top label came off, imagine these labels failing for any reason and your book looks tampered with. Sadly the older CGC holders are more secure, we lost that with the separation of the label and the inner well.
 

[jimjum12]

When Hell runs out of high heels? GOD BLESS ....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

 

CGC still impresses me, even after all these years. Always innovating. Perfection will always be elusive, but might as well keep reaching.